Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

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Buzz313th
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Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Buzz313th » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:29 pm

Just thought I would throw this idea out there..

Gate space and ramp space isn't free in the real world. One of the biggest factors for designing ops for an airline is based on the costs of and profits of operating outa certain airports.

Below is my idea for FSA airlines:

Airlines can lease gates at airports for a monthly fee. Airlines can lease as many gates as they like, but must pay for each one per month. An airline who lands an aircraft at a said airport which has leased open gate space can land for free and keep thier aircraft at the airport ocupying one gate for as long as they want. If an airline lands an aircraft at an airport where they don't have any open gate space must pay to the airport a transient gate fee for landing and must also pay a transient storage fee for every aditional 24 hours that the aircraft stays at that "Transient Gate". Each aircraft would take up one gate. So, if an airline has leased 5 gates at an airport and they have 5 planes at that airport, an aditional landing plane would incur the "transient gate" cost penalty for usage of a non leased gate at landing as well as incur the "Transient Gate" storage fee per 24 hours for every aircraft that is parked at the airport but does not have an open leased gate from it's airline.

Also allow airlines to lease ramp/hanger space called a, "Maintenance" facility from any airport. To lease a maintenance facility, the airline would have to pay a monthly fee, but would get a discount on all maintenance performed on that airlines aircraft at that particular airport. In addition to the discounted maintenance, the said airline can also store or "gate" a certain number of aircraft with no charge.

I think these two modifications to the already very cool system of FSA might add a bit more depth and help facilitate the idea of airline hubs and the costs acociated with them.

Please throw in some comments here.

JB

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by alasizon » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:32 am

Please do a search before you post, this has been brought up many times before in the past.
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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Brian Peace » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:34 am

and it's a darned good idea the way he explained it and needs to be brought up again :wink:
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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by PTY997 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:49 pm

Liking the idea this way it will keep VA's on there toes and keeps them chansing pilots around to fly. this way it would bring alot more realism towards airlines because i have noticed that money only goes down if you make a - flight, when a AC is sent for maintence and when you buy new AC or Adverts, so this will start to cause airlines towards bankruptcy like the real world therefore airlines that have been created and left will be put in to bankruptcy and FSA should say you have blah amount of month to get out of the ready or you will have to declare that your broke and the airline is deleted
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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Flightguy123 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:27 am

This would also make it more real, by airlines only buying what they need.....because they will have to cover the gate cost!! Instead of haveing over 200 planes and maybe 2 pilots...

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by vaccaro » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:57 am

For those who confuse themselves with what we are doing here ;)

Airline Tycoon Evolution lets the players manage their own airline. It also offers them the opportunity to build planes adapted to each mission and to trade them over the Internet. The players must manage : schedules and itineraries, aircraft maintenance, menus and on board entertainment, morale and efficiency of their employees… In this world of fierce competition, the players must keep an eye on their security and prevent their airline from being sabotaged.
http://www.strategyfirst.com/games/Game ... n=Overview

Airline Tycoon Evolution :p

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Amed » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:02 pm

Hello;
I propose an Idea that I think will be ideal for the VAs from FSA.
it is that VAs them must paid airport taxes is that depends on the type of the plane and the number of the passengers .and to privatize the airports . that VAs them or the pilots can buy airports; and receive the taxes.
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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by vaccaro » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:33 pm

smells like FSEconomy :)

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Alaskan Flyboy » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:01 pm

I've stated before that I like the idea of maintenance centers, so long as they aren't the only place you must do maintenance (as that's not realistic). I like the idea of discounts for the facilities. Monthly gate fees are also a good idea, but would we differentiate from gate types? At the very basic level, you have simple ramps, such as most small airports or even some larger ones such as Bob Hope International (KBUR) where stairs are used and require start-carts, towable GPUs, heat-carts, and towable air-starts. Others have jetways that can have built in GPUs and air-starts, and some airports like Sea-Tac have ports in the ramp for refueling and lav service. Though even Sea-Tac has basic ramp areas such as the ones Horizon uses for their Dash-8s (I'll be sad to see their CRJs go here soon).

As for owning airports, that sounds — sorry to be blunt — like a bad idea, and isn't at all realistic. I don't really know any private fields that offer scheduled air service, at least Part 121. Now for the reason I say it sounds like a bad idea; how easy would it be for large VAs to buy out airports and price out the competition to that field?

I'm all for realism, as long as it's balanced against the fact we're here to also have fun and not get stressed out trying to run a business instead. And just be careful how much realism you want. Most airlines in the US are either operating within bankruptcy, or just skating near bankruptcy, and have been long before the economy when to crap. Government subsidies keep most of the airlines in the US afloat. If FSA reaches that point, I think we'll have gone too far.

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Buzz313th » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:01 pm

Alaskan Flyboy wrote:I've stated before that I like the idea of maintenance centers, so long as they aren't the only place you must do maintenance (as that's not realistic). I like the idea of discounts for the facilities. Monthly gate fees are also a good idea, but would we differentiate from gate types? At the very basic level, you have simple ramps, such as most small airports or even some larger ones such as Bob Hope International (KBUR) where stairs are used and require start-carts, towable GPUs, heat-carts, and towable air-starts. Others have jetways that can have built in GPUs and air-starts, and some airports like Sea-Tac have ports in the ramp for refueling and lav service. Though even Sea-Tac has basic ramp areas such as the ones Horizon uses for their Dash-8s (I'll be sad to see their CRJs go here soon).

As for owning airports, that sounds — sorry to be blunt — like a bad idea, and isn't at all realistic. I don't really know any private fields that offer scheduled air service, at least Part 121. Now for the reason I say it sounds like a bad idea; how easy would it be for large VAs to buy out airports and price out the competition to that field?

I'm all for realism, as long as it's balanced against the fact we're here to also have fun and not get stressed out trying to run a business instead. And just be careful how much realism you want. Most airlines in the US are either operating within bankruptcy, or just skating near bankruptcy, and have been long before the economy when to crap. Government subsidies keep most of the airlines in the US afloat. If FSA reaches that point, I think we'll have gone too far.

I don't think differentiating between gate types is a good idea. I think one general type gate per rental. That simulates the ability to use the airports resources to load and unload passengers and cargo, regardless of aircraft type or size. My idea came from the fact that RL airport space is at a premium. The airports push the airlines to either turn thier planes around as quickly as possible, rent more facilities or incur a penalty. The airlines often bid against each other for long term contracts for this space and then thier entire route schedule and operations are based around the limitations of the placement of thier hubs or contracted real estate. Right now in FSA, airlines can own as many aircraft as they want, with no negative impact on the airline if the planes fly or not. These planes take up lots of space and all the space adjacent to where these big birds can land is, like I said at a premium. Airlines will often mothball a percentage of thier fleet at low expense storage places like Mojave, Tuscon, or Victorville, when they need a place to store the planes because they are not part of the active fleet.

In the RW, gates are often shared between airlines. One airline will have a lease on a particular number of gates or terminal space at an airport and when another airline wants to use the gates, codeshares will be offered and partnerships will be formed where the host airline will get a percentage of the flight revenue for exchange of terminal resources by using the codeshare and partnership.

Every airline has a maintenance facility based somewhere. These facilities are usually located at the airlines first hub ever established. These facilities include hangers and parts bays. Most of the airlines maintenance personel work at these facilities where most of the maintenance resources are kept. They do this because it costs the airline much less money to maintain thier aircraft in one location, then to transport and ship personel and parts across the world.

FSA is a great foundation to an already great hobby, although it's missing one of the biggest factors in airline management, which is obviously, facilities management.

JB

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Alaskan Flyboy » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:23 am

Buzz313th wrote:Every airline has a maintenance facility based somewhere. These facilities are usually located at the airlines first hub ever established. These facilities include hangers and parts bays. Most of the airlines maintenance personel work at these facilities where most of the maintenance resources are kept. They do this because it costs the airline much less money to maintain thier aircraft in one location, then to transport and ship personel and parts across the world.
You'd actually be surprised how much of the maintenance is done on site where the aircraft sits. Most of the work at the maintenance facilities are the big jobs such as scheduled maintenance, or items too large to be easily done on site yet the aircraft can be MEL'd without it. The APU is an example, we have jets come in without the APU on a routine basis and will fly that way for a week or more until they're taken out of service for repairs. Though a lot of parts are flown in by other aircraft as well. We've had planes wait for another plane to come in carrying parts quite a few times, including when one of our A300s came in with one flap stuck in completely up and the other stuck fully down.

It's the reason I agree with the concept of maintenance facilities offering a discount at their airport site. I just know a few of the other threads of this bent have called for maintenance to only be done at the facility site.

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Buzz313th » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:25 am

Alaskan Flyboy wrote:
Buzz313th wrote:Every airline has a maintenance facility based somewhere. These facilities are usually located at the airlines first hub ever established. These facilities include hangers and parts bays. Most of the airlines maintenance personel work at these facilities where most of the maintenance resources are kept. They do this because it costs the airline much less money to maintain thier aircraft in one location, then to transport and ship personel and parts across the world.
You'd actually be surprised how much of the maintenance is done on site where the aircraft sits. Most of the work at the maintenance facilities are the big jobs such as scheduled maintenance, or items too large to be easily done on site yet the aircraft can be MEL'd without it. The APU is an example, we have jets come in without the APU on a routine basis and will fly that way for a week or more until they're taken out of service for repairs. Though a lot of parts are flown in by other aircraft as well. We've had planes wait for another plane to come in carrying parts quite a few times, including when one of our A300s came in with one flap stuck in completely up and the other stuck fully down.

It's the reason I agree with the concept of maintenance facilities offering a discount at their airport site. I just know a few of the other threads of this bent have called for maintenance to only be done at the facility site.
I wouldn't be too surprised. Depending on the item or items thats on the MEL, can be aproved even without a signoff from an A&P. The MEL list actually exists because way back when, the airlines lobbied to the FAA to request a method to fly revenue flights without "Non essentials" because fixing them off site or taking the aircraft outa scheduled service was too much of a loss. Roughly about 20% of all needed repairs are done "offsite" and by a large majority by contracted technicians not directly employed by the airline needing service. Yes, like you said 99% of all routine checks are done at the facilities and for a good reason as it costs the airline much less as well as the "offline" time is scheduled so that "flipping" the schedules and crews isn't a concern as it's already on the books.

I am not for maintenance only at the Hubs, but I am for a large discount for maint done at the airlines Maint center.

These two additions would force route and fleet schedulers to pay more attention to what there doing, instead of just throwing dispatch tabs into a hat and sprinkling them over the globe.

All these reasons and a few more are a good reason to try and implement this idea into the potential release coming Jan 1st.

JB

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Alaskan Flyboy » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:13 am

Yeah. Our two mechanics mostly sit around drinking coffee and sharing dirty emails all day. It's interesting to watch them repair lights, change wheels, or swap out modules in the avionics bay. The changing out of a cockpit window during a snow storm was rather interesting to watch. Draped a tarp over the top and off they went. Watching them lay under the engine cowling with a long metal rod to hold open stuck bleed air valves until the engine starts is rather crazy to watch as well.

Given I was a former flight student who's flight school had an MEL for their training aircraft, I'm quite familiar with the door-stop/make-shift-weapon-to-beat-a-terrorist-to-death-with. It think it had to have added 20 pounds to our weight and balance in those poor Cherokees. :mrgreen:

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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by Brian Peace » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:59 am

Just for the record, any actual "ownership" of gates or property (airports) would be a bad, bad idea. That is what FSE is all about, and you cant really fly where YOU want to... and the beauty of FSA is that you can makes routes and fly where your heart desires, and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

Now, having to pay "rentals" for gates is not a bad idea, as long as there is no limited amount of gates anywhere. The more you rent the more you pay... fine... but can you imagine NOT having your VA route to EGLL becuase all the gates got snapped up by the first VA to notice them? I cant... and that's what scares me.
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Re: Hubs Maintenance Facilities And Gates

Post by alasizon » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:20 am

One thing that concerns me is leasing aircraft and the way they'd be hit by gate penalties. Not all aircraft end up at the correct airport after the lease and therefore would incur a gate fee to the owning airline which would be unfair to them because it's a system and leasee airline issue.
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