Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

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Cat
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Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:09 pm

OK I have run a "beta test" on the new 0/0 cargo limit thing, making sure my seating has the cargo limit set to 0 and my charter flight route is set to cargo limit 0.

I get a problem in that the "package cargo limit" set by FSAirlines cannot be met.

Doing the math from the 789 specs: 82673 lbs cargo capacity - 174pax X 50lb each for bags = 73973 lbs available.
FSAirlines is showing 75,120 lbs of package cargo available but I can only load 72,753 lbs. After that the system spits any attempted loads back out.

I am showing a 1220 lb discrepancy between my calculated cargo space after baggage loaded and a 2367 lb discrepancy between what the FSAirlines package cargo limit is and what it will actually accept.

If I go to another flight with generic cargo it says I can take 72,351 generic cargo. That works out to 26.9kg/59.32 lbs per pax bag.
--------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY OF TEST:

82673 Cargo Available in this Boeing 787-900 (before pax bags loaded)
75120 Listed Package Cargo Available with 0/0 generic set on flight route and seat config tool
72753 Maximum amount of packages the system will load with 174 pax on board 24 first 150 business (sports charter)
72351 Maximum generic cargo available if not using the limit system
-----------------
284066 Dry Operating Weight
38744 Pax weight (174 x 101 kg each converted to lbs)
72753 Package weight
395563 Zero Fuel Weight
400000 Max Zero Fuel Weight
-----------------
one final note
749 lbs crew weight added
396695 Zero fuel weight in the client
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joefremont
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:23 pm

I did some checking and found a few small bugs in the function that calculates the available cargo space, which I hope are now fixed. So here is how it should work.

I also assume you did this with N789FV, so I will start from there. First thing to remember is internally everything FSA does is in KG and its often easier to do the math there as you don't have to worry about any rounding errors. The system uses the assumption of 77 kg per passenger (169.4 lb) and 25 kg for there baggage (55 lb), also 85 kg (187 lb) per crew member for them and there carry on.

In this case the limiting factor is the Cargo payload (37,500 kg/82,673 lb)
Subtract from that the space for baggage for 174 seats (4,375 kg/9,645 lb)
And you should be able to load (33,125 kg, 73,028 lb)

Things to note:

Even if the route is limiting the passengers to a lower number the system will still reserve space in the cargo hold for baggage based on the number of seats in the seat configuration.

With generic cargo it will just try to fill the aircraft up to the MZFW, which means if your carrying less than a full load of pax, it may allow you more generic cargo than packages.

The system will also try to limit so you don't exceed the MTOW and when doing that will look at the amount of fuel on the aircraft at that time.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:36 pm

hmmmmm (system detects fuel in aircraft to prevent overloading MTOW) so how do we load fuel before we load the packages when the Client isn't on yet? I am getting more and more corn fused as things evolved LOL I am a big fan of KIS. And the older I get, the more I lean to KIS :shock: :lol:

I was going to make a tutorial video on this new feature but I need to figure out how it really works first. Otherwise it would be the blind leading the blind.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:08 pm

Cat wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:36 pm
hmmmmm (system detects fuel in aircraft to prevent overloading MTOW) so how do we load fuel before we load the packages when the Client isn't on yet?
Its just the fuel that was left over after the previous flight. The idea was, I did not want to force pilot to dump valuable fuel just to take on more packages. Sorry this is so confusing, with so many variables its hard to cover all the possibilities and still keep it simple, which is always my goal.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:06 pm

All good, as with most new systems, it will just take a bit to figure out and shake out the bugs..... So to the best of my understanding, BOTH limit cargo boxes must agree at 0 for the "no generic cargo" feature to work. That means the flight route and the seating configuration must agree. Yes?

So if a route manager/CEO/VA admin uses a spreadsheet to modify their master route list, they can flip all the limit cargo's to 0 with a copy / paste, then save the file under a new name and upload it using REPLACE FP ONLY if they do the entire master route list. Otherwise they will have to go through the flight routes one by one and uncheck the limit cargo boxes and set the value to 0. Yikes. EDIT: actually they can just copy/paste the 0 to the routes they want, save their entire file and upload the new master so no yikes after all. LOL

With all of the routes set at limit cargo 0, they will still get generic cargo if the seat configuration has limit cargo unlimited still checked, correct?

So to make this work one has to reset all the flight routes to cargo limit 0 and each aircraft seating reset to cargo limit 0.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:43 am

If both are zero or one is zero and the other unlimited, they will get zero generic cargo and can load the packages up to the maximum the aircraft can carry.

If one is zero and the other is non zero, they will get zero generic cargo and the packages will be limited by the non zero value.

The second case I can see VA's setting all there routes to zero and then setting the seat configuration so the pilots don't overload there aircraft.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:39 pm

As of this morning Dec 28th, not using generic cargo would be a big problem in our Great Lakes region as the majority of 88's seem to have disappeared. There is no package cargo going to anywhere in Michigan out of KORD today so generic is all I have in my hometown area. So before anyone modifies all of their routes to use only package cargo, you may want to reconsider that as there are just not enough packages in the world to satisfy all regional needs. I have also discovered as well there is a huge waste of database resources as a lot of smaller packages going out of small regionals have destinations thousands of miles away and nobody is ever going to pick them up and fly them. So while the package system is interesting and entertaining if you want to go "hunting", for a VA to rely on packages as their sole cargo source would be a big mistake in my opinion - at least the way the system is currently generating packages.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:35 pm

Well, actually, to avoid big airplanes at big airports from sucking up all the available small packages, I had coded it to not place the 40kg/88lb packages at the super airports (like KORD). If you look at midway (KMDW) you will find a lot more.

I suppose we could start placing them at those very large super airports, at least going to other small airports closer to it, there are only 50 of them.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:59 pm

AHHH yes that makes sense, we only run our small birds to KORD for service calls at another VA service center who is offering great prices. 8)

But there used to be a ton of packages for rural Michigan in/out of KORD and it just seemed that something changed.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:28 pm

Maybe it was when I fixed the bug that was puting the small packages on very long distances was fixed, it also 'fixed' the placing of 200kg/441lb packages at less than 250 nm, which is supposed to be the minimum distance for those size packages, and 250 nm is probably enough to cover every major MI airport from the Chicago ports.

I could see us making a update to the package logic to allow the smaller packages at the super airports, but only to smaller airports (Regional and smaller) and probably with a shorter maximum distance.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:35 pm

The largest problem I see in the package system is the waste of database/resources for international packages departing regional airports that will rarely, if ever get delivered. The highest package load outbound of Twin Falls Idaho is going to Berlin but no plane with the range to fly that far can land or take off from that airport. They would have to be shuttled to a larger airport and by the time it all got collected and delivered, they would be expired. But this is really off topic here - although it is pertinent to those who want to fly "packages only" as a regional operator. Right now setting the generic cargo limit to zero is not advisable for regional operators as there is just not enough package cargo available on a more local basis.

The other probem with the "hub package idea" is the poor little regional guys don't make hardly anything while the long hauler rakes in the big bucks on packages set up by the regional connector. I can make more in my regional division flying generic than I can shuttling packages for a long hauler to take. The airline as a whole makes good money, don't get me wrong on that, but those whose main focus is flying regional aircraft/operations, you would be far better off flying generic cargo only than being a peanut making regional package sub server to a long haul airline.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:05 pm

Looking at twin falls (KTWF) it is odd that two airports in germany get so many packages, especially since there has never been a flight to there or anywhere past 1120 nm from that airport. Granted they have the most weight because many of the packages are the large 2000 kg ones but still thats 40 packages going to Berlin. Will look into that.

When designing it I had hoped teams would work together to move those large packages from smaller airports to the hubs and back again, but alas it's not happening much.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by joefremont » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:02 pm

Some more information on what's going on at Twin Falls. And I finally figured something out.

For 200 kg and 2000 kg packages about 1/3 is set to airports randomly based there size and about 2/3 where there is some established connection, mostly its flights within the last 90 days but the number routes are added in as a small part of the formula.

For 200kg packages 90% go to airports within 250-4000 nm and 10% goes to those within 2500-8000 nm.
For 2000kg packages they go to airports within 500 - 12000 nm and they need to be at least 'regional' in size.

In the last 90 days the longest flight from KTWF is 198 nm, that means for 2/3 for where there is a connection, those packages requiring distances greater than 250 nm there are no active flights and it's just the routes that are being used to calculate the probabilities and from KTWF the airline "Euro Airwings Germany" has routes to EDDT, EDDF and KIAH.

When creating a package, the system first chooses where a package is coming from, based on the size of the airport, its population and the activity in the airport. Then chooses where it is supposed to go. I assumed a manufacturer in a city near a remote airport is just as likely to be shipping internationally as a manufacture near a super airport.

So how to fix this is the next thing to consider.
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:22 pm

I am kind of curious how EuroWings even gets in and out of an 8750 ft runway at 4154 elevation with a max weight bearing capacity of 250,000 lbs to fly to Germany.
LOL
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Re: Cargo Limit Feature Numbers Don't Add Up

Post by Cat » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:25 pm

The biggest problem is this is just the tinest tip of a giant iceberg I'm sure as many VA's book and fly into airports they would not be legally allowed to in the real world. So at some point there has to be some tradeoff between "gaming" and real world operations.

If we overthink it and make it too complex, one day one might just throw their hands up in the air and say "I give up" and we surely don't want you to reach that point!
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