Cargo System/Packages

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joefremont
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:14 pm

CaptainPrecious wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:17 pm
...
But would it be too difficult to, let‘s say give certain locations certain goods and packages of certain kinds? And make regions rely on certain goods in order to produce their own?

That way you could have something like „coal-mine regions“, that just produce infinetly, but in order to make other regions produce goods SOMEbody gotta deliver eg coal to them. The more supply they get, the more they produce and so on...

...

Just my 2 cents
CaptainPrecious
I remember way way back, one of the first PC computer games I ever played was one called 'Taipan' where you sailed a ship between ports, bought cargo that was four different types of commodities and different ports had different rates (and occasionally your ship was intercepted by pirates you had to fight off). We could go there but then that's a bit of a different game, buying and selling of commodities rather than just transporting goods someone else wants to ship.
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by VegasTim » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:10 pm

I am seeing something new now in the Cargo System, perhaps this is a glitch? One can see ALL AIRCRAFT in the airline regardless of the location one chooses at the top in Airline Packages. It almost seems possible to load packages onto aircraft that are not at that airport. Perhaps this needs investigating as it can be quite confusing to see all those planes when looking for one specific aircraft that is the only one at that particular airport.

All of our Airport Centers and our Warehouse show up when I'm in Las Vegas too, including the Boise Airport Center and the Phoenix Warehouse.

I just tried to load a package onto a King Air 350 in Boise from the Phoenix Warehouse and the system tried but then kicked it out and the page flipped to Boise at the top instead of Las Vegas where I was. But every aircraft we own still shows up regardless of the location at the top.

FYI - My signature is "on" but it doesn't show here don't know why

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joefremont
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:51 am

VegasTim wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:10 pm
I am seeing something new now in the Cargo System, perhaps this is a glitch? One can see ALL AIRCRAFT in the airline regardless of the location one chooses at the top in Airline Packages. It almost seems possible to load packages onto aircraft that are not at that airport. Perhaps this needs investigating as it can be quite confusing to see all those planes when looking for one specific aircraft that is the only one at that particular airport.

All of our Airport Centers and our Warehouse show up when I'm in Las Vegas too, including the Boise Airport Center and the Phoenix Warehouse.

I just tried to load a package onto a King Air 350 in Boise from the Phoenix Warehouse and the system tried but then kicked it out and the page flipped to Boise at the top instead of Las Vegas where I was. But every aircraft we own still shows up regardless of the location at the top.

FYI - My signature is "on" but it doesn't show here don't know why
Thanks for pointing that out, try to fix one thing and you break another. Should be better now.
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CaptainPrecious
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by CaptainPrecious » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:13 am

Btw yesterday, I don't know exactly why, I landed in Heathrow and wanted to take packages form there onto my plane, and accidentally loaded a plane in Munich!

I mean, Packages from EGLL onto a plane located in Munich!?!?

So I flew from EDDM to EGLL, loaded the packages from one Airplane onto the other one and... problem solved. But this shouldn't be happening, right?

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joefremont
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:06 am

CaptainPrecious wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:13 am
Btw yesterday, I don't know exactly why, I landed in Heathrow and wanted to take packages form there onto my plane, and accidentally loaded a plane in Munich!

I mean, Packages from EGLL onto a plane located in Munich!?!?

So I flew from EDDM to EGLL, loaded the packages from one Airplane onto the other one and... problem solved. But this shouldn't be happening, right?
That was a bug that was pointed out to me and should be fixed now, if you can get the ID numbers of both aircraft I can transfer them back.
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Cat
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by Cat » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:52 pm

Seems the folks have found a way to game the system and suck entire area's dry of package cargo available: flying jumbo jets short distances (less than 500nm) and taking everything within range and ground delivering them.

So unless the package supply is multiplied by a significant factor or some rules put into place about short hopping jumbo jet freighters, this problem will only persist.

I've run the numbers and if cargo is available, a jumbo jet can make far more money doing 200nm turns back and forth than flying a long route - in regards to income earned per flight hour.

Jumbo jets were never designed for a high rate of landing cycles, they are made to get up and fly for hours.

Just some observations as the system evolves.

One solution to slow this down is to remove the ground delivery option completely leaving the smaller planes with at least some leftover pickings at other locations in the area.

Another solution is to increase the status hit on jumbo jet aircraft "per landing cycle" so they will require maintenance far earlier when flying many short trips verses longer ones.

We have an in-house 500/1000nm rule. Anytime a jumbo jet flies a route less than 500nm it must then fly the next flight a minimum of 1000nm.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by jato0072 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:37 pm

May I also suggest the system could generate random package clusters.

Instead of googles of 88 lbs packages, 441 lbs packages and 4,409 lbs packages, have the FSA package generating system create (for example):

10 * 4409 lbs packages (44090 lbs)

5 * 441 lbs packages (2205 lbs)

7 * 88 lbs packages (616 lbs)

Where the number of packages in a singe 'job' is a random number say between 1 and 10.

This might help with cutting down the massive package inventories at the large airports.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:55 am

Cat wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:52 pm
Seems the folks have found a way to game the system and suck entire area's dry of package cargo available: flying jumbo jets short distances (less than 500nm) and taking everything within range and ground delivering them.

So unless the package supply is multiplied by a significant factor or some rules put into place about short hopping jumbo jet freighters, this problem will only persist.

I've run the numbers and if cargo is available, a jumbo jet can make far more money doing 200nm turns back and forth than flying a long route - in regards to income earned per flight hour.

Jumbo jets were never designed for a high rate of landing cycles, they are made to get up and fly for hours.

Just some observations as the system evolves.

One solution to slow this down is to remove the ground delivery option completely leaving the smaller planes with at least some leftover pickings at other locations in the area.

Another solution is to increase the status hit on jumbo jet aircraft "per landing cycle" so they will require maintenance far earlier when flying many short trips verses longer ones.

We have an in-house 500/1000nm rule. Anytime a jumbo jet flies a route less than 500nm it must then fly the next flight a minimum of 1000nm.
Hi Sam, You suggested not that long ago we reduce the delivery radius to 30-50nm instead of 100nm, I wonder how much that would help. As for wide body aircraft on short routes, I know there have been some specifically intended for that route, the 747-400D comes to mind. I also remember reading about PSA's experience with the early L-1011's, they bought a few planning on using it on there short SFO to LAX route, of course they were not a success, not because of maintenance issues but because of there size they took too long to load and unload. Alas in our FSA world we have never taken into account the turn around time for the aircraft. We could increase the damage on large aircraft on a per flight basis but it probably would not be enough to deter the short term gain pilots are getting.

Maybe for aircraft that can take the 2000 kg packages they can't take on the small 40 kg package unless another aircraft has moved it from its starting point. I wonder how much that would help.
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Cat
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by Cat » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:45 am

I don't want to cut out the guys with big birds doing what they do (this is after all supposed to be for fun), but we do need some way to leave some pickings for those who don't fly big birds. The easiest solution in my eye would be to remove the ground delivery as a trial test. Now it will take two flights into OAK SFO so competing airlines have a chance to grab some of the gold instead of one big bird sweeping it all away in one flight.

The only other solution that is "simple" without changing a lot (at least in my mind) would be to just double the volume. That may not be so simple either, as I - like everyone else - have no idea what it takes to generate packages.

Plan C: International packages are taking a huge amount of resources in regional airport areas such as Boise ID. I would try to increase domestic production using slots currently taken up by international packages at smaller airports. For example right now Boise to Manila 2 x 4409.... who is going to get them?

And with the time clock ticking, there isn't enough time to scour the country for 2 here 1 there maybe 3 over here to gather them all up to MAYBE fill a plane that can actually fly that distance.

I think the system is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but it still needs a little tweeking as we find where the high volume use areas are so operators of smaller freighter aircraft like the 700C are not left out and flying for peanuts with generic only cargo. There is a good possibility we under estimated the volume FSAirlines VA's can move with dedicated freighters as this seems to be very popular. Perhaps it's just a fad and will run it's course as the freight dries up and the big money runs are only grabbed by a few, leaving other VA's to scrap their freight only operations and go back to hauling pax.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:30 pm

I will make a couple changes to see if it can help this issue.

I will double the number of 40kg packages being generated and set the generator to run 4 times a day instead of 3. I will also tweak the code so that packages going too or from 'International' airports so they can only go to smaller airport rather than other international or intercontinental airports.

I will also reduce the delivery radius to 30 mn instead of the current 100 nm. I find it hard to reduce below that, the KOAK -> KSFO example is one that is well in my mind, since I live so close to both of them, in real life pretty much all air cargo going to San Francisco is going to go through Oakland since that's the main cargo airport in the area.

But to compensate for this take away, I will increase the delivery times so you have 6 days instead of 4 to deliver that package, after that the rate will go down by 25% instead of 20% so it will end at the same time.

As for those 2000 kg packages in Boise, yes does seem odd, but they won't reduce the number smaller packages as the two are not linked.

I will release that change in the next day or two.
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by Captain K-Man » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:25 pm

Did you already implement this because I have a bunch of cargo sitting in my cargo holds meant for other airports and they are all stuck now, rotting and costing the airline money. I select and click deliver and the gears grind but when it comes back the cargo is still there. Are you going to wipe the cargo holds? I personally didn't see any issue with the way it was running. Careful you don't punish big airlines in favor of the little guy. You don't want to irritate 100+ pilots all at once. Making more cargo spawn is fine, limiting the delivery radius to 30nm I don't think is. Once the cargo goes from the plane to the warehouse its loaded on trucks and shipped all over the place. This is how its done in real life and your current way of doing it mimicked that nicely I think.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:15 pm

Captain K-Man wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:25 pm
Did you already implement this because I have a bunch of cargo sitting in my cargo holds meant for other airports and they are all stuck now, rotting and costing the airline money. I select and click deliver and the gears grind but when it comes back the cargo is still there. Are you going to wipe the cargo holds? I personally didn't see any issue with the way it was running. Careful you don't punish big airlines in favor of the little guy. You don't want to irritate 100+ pilots all at once. Making more cargo spawn is fine, limiting the delivery radius to 30nm I don't think is. Once the cargo goes from the plane to the warehouse its loaded on trucks and shipped all over the place. This is how its done in real life and your current way of doing it mimicked that nicely I think.
Yes I did but I just rolled that part back. Sorry that needs proper announcements before doing and should probably roll back in stages. Rather than going right to 30 I will set at 50, after this weekend and see how things go.
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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by Cat » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:41 pm

@ Captain K-Man:

It was never my intention to punish the big guys, but when y'all take everything for a major city in one flight, that kinda ruins the fun for others who are not flying big heavy freight haulers. Your "100+" pilot airline might get irritated over the "little guy" wanting to play too, but please have some patience. There are a lot of "one man band" VA's out there who pay the same fee to operate their VA. As I previously stated, I just think the system needs some fine tuning as it evolves and people use it more and more.

The way it was originally set up there is not nearly enough freight volume for the number of shippers, especially using the ground delivery method.

You do realize you are hauling 100 mile ground delivered freight for free do you not? The ground delivery fee is 1% package value per mile.

At some point, generic cargo will pay more, I just wish we had some "cost table" where we could figure out the generic freight value vs. ground delivered freight. I'm betting it's somewhere around 50 miles (at 50 miles, 50% pay on package freight is all you get). If we could make intelligent profit decisions regarding ground delivered vs. generic freight by having such a table to base our calculations on, I think the 100 mile thing would become a moot point.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by Captain K-Man » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:38 pm

Oh I want the little guys to have fun to but not at the expense of crippling operations for everyone. More cargo needed perhaps? I am sure the balance will be found.

I am actually more concerned with another major problem at least in my airline. Without having a 'signature' on the cargo loads I can't tell who is loading what on to our planes and I am very convinced I have at least a few trolls in my airline that keep loading bogus packages that we have no way of delivering, a pilot takes the plane not looking who loaded it, and pretty soon you have a plane that has cargo for 15 airports that it will never deliver too. This BS cargo loading has been going on for weeks now and is costing us millions of dollars in the VA. Without tools to see who is doing what I can't punish and kick pilots who join the VA simply to sabotage it and it is REAL threat and is happening. What's to stop some guy/gal from joining the VA (who is another VA already that isn't as successful) and sabotaging all the planes in the fleet with bad cargo loads for their own benefit?

The quick fix we were talking about on our Discord was to be able to set who can and can't use the cargo package system by Rank. If we had the option to not allow the package system to be used until you reach a certain rank then we can weed out those who are just joining to wreck the airline's financial books.

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Re: Cargo System/Packages

Post by joefremont » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:26 pm

Captain K-Man wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:38 pm
Oh I want the little guys to have fun to but not at the expense of crippling operations for everyone. More cargo needed perhaps? I am sure the balance will be found.

I am actually more concerned with another major problem at least in my airline. Without having a 'signature' on the cargo loads I can't tell who is loading what on to our planes and I am very convinced I have at least a few trolls in my airline that keep loading bogus packages that we have no way of delivering, a pilot takes the plane not looking who loaded it, and pretty soon you have a plane that has cargo for 15 airports that it will never deliver too. This BS cargo loading has been going on for weeks now and is costing us millions of dollars in the VA. Without tools to see who is doing what I can't punish and kick pilots who join the VA simply to sabotage it and it is REAL threat and is happening. What's to stop some guy/gal from joining the VA (who is another VA already that isn't as successful) and sabotaging all the planes in the fleet with bad cargo loads for their own benefit?

The quick fix we were talking about on our Discord was to be able to set who can and can't use the cargo package system by Rank. If we had the option to not allow the package system to be used until you reach a certain rank then we can weed out those who are just joining to wreck the airline's financial books.
Both ideas are good, more visibility as too who is loading cargo and a 'pilot_cargo' permission as who is allowed to load cargo.

I actually have the ID of the pilot who loaded the package stored in the database but have not figured out a good way to expose it. I have worried about making the tables too crowded but I will try to add it to the 'All VA Packages' and when the packages not delivered transactions are generated maybe we can segrate it by pilot who claimed them.
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