Shorts 330

[Stan]

I have been trying to submit a support ticket so that i can alter the aircraft data so that the MZFW and MTOW are not the same for the above aircraft but keep getting "there was prob,m with database" message.
As it is at the moment i have to dump either fuel or passengers to get any fuel in the aircraft.I would like the MZFW altered to 8646kgs.Thanks in advance.

[MMattyK]

Hiya Stan,

I used the data I found on the site listed below, but have no idea what the max zero fuel weight is, so I put it at the DOW plus full pax/baggage, and put the cargo weight to take it up to the max landing weight. It's something that you may want to address later. It may not be totally correct, but it'll be something to work from when you get the corrected figures. The range is something else that you might also want to look at.. from what I can discover, at MTOW the range is around 450nm, but again may be wrong

Just out of interest, the one listed in the aircraft database is a passenger one, but their were purely freighters as well... anyway here's the link

Here's a useful link for the data that I've found:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49972659/Aircraft-Specs-1

[MMattyK]

I contacted Bombardier regarding the performance data of the 330-200 and with this and the link above, you should be able to generate the correct weights.

I can't upload the file as an attachment as it's a pdf, but here is the data:

Maximum ramp weight: 23000 lbs
MTOW: 22900 lbs
MLW: 22600 lbs
Operating weight Typical
Passenger fit (30 passengers, 3 crew): 15000 lbs
Cargo fit (2 crew): 14140 lbs
Design Payload
Passengers 30
Cargo 7600 lbs
Fuel capacity 3840 lbs
Rate of climb, ISA sealevel MTOW 1180 ft/min
Cruise speed at 21000 lbs 190kt TAS
Range with 30 pax (with reserves) 320nm
Range with max fuel 775nm

Hope this helps... incidentally I think there were 95 ac produced.

[Stan]

Thanks for reply and figures Matty,but the problem is that everytime i try to submit an aircraft edit i get the "problem with database" message,also when i try to submit a support ticket i get as far as "there is a problem with" and i then select "an aircraft" and the program just dumps me back at my virtual airline page.
Therefore i cant submit an aircraft edit and also cant submit a support ticket about it.

[MMattyK]

I sometimes have that issue too, its something to do with internet explorer... have you tried logging in to the site using some other browser like 'chome' or 'safari' or 'firefox'?

[CAPFlyer]

Only 2 problems guys - 1) the data from Bombardier is only for a modified aircraft with higher horsepower engines, 2) none of the FS models conform to this modification.

Also, why go through the trouble of contacting Bombardier, who don't own the type certificate or have anything regulatory-wise to do with the SD3-30, instead of just going to the FAA who has the Type Certificate available for download with all the needed information?

The FAA's Type Certificate for the SD3-30 (A41EU) shows the following -

Maximum Ramp Weight: 22,100 lb.
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 22,000 lb.
Maximum Landing Weight: 21,700 lb.

The following notes apply -

NOTE 6. SD3-30 airplanes incorporating Short Brothers CMC Mod. 5192* may be operated at the following maximum
weights:
Maximum ramp weight 22,500 lb
Maximum takeoff weight 22,400 lb
Maximum landing weight 22,100 lb

NOTE 8. SD3-30 airplanes incorporating Short Brothers CMC Mod. 5600* may be operated at the following maximum
weights:
Maximum ramp weight 22,700 lb
Maximum takeoff weight 22,600 lb
Maximum landing weight 22,300 lb

NOTE 12. SD3-30 airplanes incorporating Short Brothers CMC Mod. 6036* may be operated at the following
maximum weights:
Maximum ramp weight 23,000 lb
Maximum takeoff weight 22,900 lb
Maximum landing weight 22,600 lb

[MMattyK]

Thanks for the information, but I'd like to respond to a couple of points made if I may.

First of all, I was trying to help by getting as much information I could find. Google searches for Shorts 330-200 or SH33 (ICAO code listed in the database) certification or licenses does not bring up the FAA website for reference material. It brings up things various other data sources that are somewhat unreliable... a couple had the MLW greater than the MTOW! ???

Secondly, it seemed reasonably sensible to contact the company Bombardier (who bought out Short Brothers) as a data source as they should have all the certification data too... the fact they supplied an original company pamphlet is neither here or there, it provided some data to go by.

Thirdly, the database within FSAirlines for the aircraft was missing a lot of information, had the MZFW the same as the MTOW and various other anomolies; and still has the range for the type as 0 Nm, which doesn't seem to be listed in the FAA document.

Fourthly, I don't have a model of the type, but freeware models abound of all types of manufacturers, models and variants, and whilst I appreciate the FSAirlines database has to restrict its listings, to say that there are no models in existance of the aircraft avialable for use within Flight simulator that has been modelled using the aircraft data that I found is a bit off.

Finally, as I said, I appreciate the information obtained by you via the FAA rebsite, and I'm sure that the information in the database will be adjusted to reflect a model of the Short Brothers 330-200, and I'm certain Stan will as well, once done by a database administrator.

[Stan]

I have submitted a support ticket stating that the "aircraft edit" does not work.Just gives message "problem with database,contact admin"

[CAPFlyer]

Stan, are you sure it's not working? I looked at the type right now and it seems that the information has been updated. Sometimes it gives that error depending on what browser you're using even though it submits the edit request.

Remember that all edits have to be approved, so you won't see anything change until someone with admin access goes in and approves the changes.

[CAPFlyer]

First of all, I was trying to help by getting as much information I could find. Google searches for Shorts 330-200 or SH33 (ICAO code listed in the database) certification or licenses does not bring up the FAA website for reference material. It brings up things various other data sources that are somewhat unreliable... a couple had the MLW greater than the MTOW! ???

Which is why I never use anything other than detailed technical specs from the original manufacturer or the appropriate type certificate. It's also why I hate using "Marketing Designations" at times. Technically, the Short 330 and Short 360 don't exist. They are the Short Brothers SD3-30 and Short Brothers SD3-60. The "Sherpa" is either the Short Brothers C-23A/B/B+/C or Short Brothers SD3-SHERPA (C-23A/B) or SD3-60 SHERPA (C-23 B+/C). It's kinda like the MD-80 series. Technically there is no such thin as an "MD-80". All the aircraft are both certified and data plated as the DC-9-8(1/2/3/7). Only the MD-88 and MD-90 were certified as "distinct" models.

Secondly, it seemed reasonably sensible to contact the company Bombardier (who bought out Short Brothers) as a data source as they should have all the certification data too... the fact they supplied an original company pamphlet is neither here or there, it provided some data to go by.

I apologize then because all certification information still shows Short Brothers on it with no reference to Bombardier. Typically when a company gets bought out, the certification is transferred to the new parent company as they become the "design authority".

Thirdly, the database within FSAirlines for the aircraft was missing a lot of information, had the MZFW the same as the MTOW and various other anomolies; and still has the range for the type as 0 Nm, which doesn't seem to be listed in the FAA document.

Range is a fickle thing. Usually not even the manufacturer gives accurate information as they usually include IFR reserves in their numbers. Range in FSAirlines' case is maximum unrefueled range. So far, I've only found a couple of incomplete sites that give that information beyond the airplane manuals or detailed specs from Boeing and Airbus.

Fourthly, I don't have a model of the type, but freeware models abound of all types of manufacturers, models and variants, and whilst I appreciate the FSAirlines database has to restrict its listings, to say that there are no models in existance of the aircraft avialable for use within Flight simulator that has been modelled using the aircraft data that I found is a bit off.

You are making assumptions not in print there. I said the FS models represent the original SD3-30 with lower weights and lower-powered engines than the information you presented. Simply increasing the weights in FS doesn't make it fly right and will result in other items not working out properly (like range). And just changing the horsepower of the engines won't fix it either because that'll further mess up the fuel consumption. This is where a lot of the problems come in with any addon program, including FSEconomy and FSPassengers.

[Stan]

I have had a reply from support to aknowledge that they are aware the "AIRCRAFT EDIT" does not work and that they are looking into it,i do realise that they have day jobs as well and so i am prepared to wait until they have got time to sort the problem out.I would like to thank you guys for trying to help me sort my problem out and also thank capflyer for sorting out all the Airbus and Boeing aircraft.It must have taken you a lot of time,but is well apprieciated by me at least.

[CAPFlyer]

Thankfully, both Boeing and Airbus publish their data in ways that are very easy to read and interpolate. Only took me about an hour to update them all.

[MMattyK]

I think we all would like to thank him for that