Problem with 1-11

[Independance]

Hello

I just wonder why somebody reduced pax capacity
on BAC 1-11-500 from 109 to 99.

And another thing.
Also somebody reduced cargo load to 2000kg on entire 1-11 fleet.
Can live with that, but now after booking flight,
there is underload before MZFW, but there is no cargo
booked.

Can somebody explain, what for such an "improvement"???

Regards
Tomasz

[joefremont]

Can't comment on the specific changes to this aircraft.

But with 99 passengers, each with 25kg of baggage, that will use up the 2000kg of cargo space.

[alasizon]

Uhh Joe,

99x25=2475

[CAPFlyer]

Matthew, you're agreeing with Joe. He said that the passenger load would use up all of the available cargo space.

BTW, I don't know who approved them because the data loaded in was done so after a lot of research, so any changes were probably wrong. Joe, can you revert the numbers back to where they were?

[joefremont]

I got them close to what they were before, but what was there before is obviously invalid as the cargo limit was slightly more than the difference between the MZFW and the DOW. I was looking at the FAA type certificates for the 1-11-200 and 1-11-400 and they seamed to be around 3k and 5k respectively. They did not have a certificate for the -500 so I did not make any changes.

Curiously airbus holds the 1-11 certs.

Edit:

I updated the 1-11-200 to 3322kg and the 1-11-400 to 4370kg based on the FAA type certificates. Hopefully someone can find an accurate value for the -500.

[Independance]

Hi

OK, now its fine, but payload of 500 can be reduced to 400 version of 4370kg which looks much more better than 11983kg which is now.

But 99 pax is still weird as this aircrft has max seeting of 119pax and the general pourpose was to have aircraft that has 20 seats more than 300/400.

Regadrs
Tomasz

[DaveB]

Hi Joe..

Dunno if this is any use to you. I think these figures are what we based a lot of our calculations on over at CBFS.

Typical Operating Weight Empty (varies with customer fit)
Srs200.. 21,049kg
Srs300.. 22,098kg
Srs400.. 23,050kg
NAL400.. 23,505kg
Srs475.. 23,464kg
Srs500.. 24,758kg

Maximum Payload (typical figure)
Srs200.. 7,981kg
Srs300/400.. 9,083kg
Srs475.. 9,647kg
Srs500.. 11,983kg

MTOW (typical figure)
Srs200.. 35,833kg
Srs300/400.. 40,142kg
Srs475.. 44,678kg
Srs500.. 47,400kg

The Maximum Ramp Weight figure for each model is 500lb/226.8kg greater than the quoted MTOW figure shown above.

MLW
Srs200.. 32,204kg
Srs300/400.. 35,380kg
Srs475/500.. 39,462kg

MZFW (varies between customers - typical figure shown)
Srs200.. 29,030kg
Srs300/400.. 32,204kg
NAL400.. 31,070kg
Srs475.. 33,112kg
Srs500.. 36,741kg

Source.. The One-Eleven Story - Air Britain publications

ATB

DaveB

[CAPFlyer]

How much it can carry and how much it does carry are two different things Joe. The numbers Dave posted are the correct numbers. The lower holds are HUGE on the 1-11 and can hold exactly what they state. Have they ever carried that much? Not likely, but it is possible to do. As he showed, this is from an official publication that includes the underfloor capacity, not the capacity in "freighter" configuration, something that the 1-11 has never been used for anyway.

The reason we put in place the MZFW restrictions was because of this very thing. The simulation was loading up the planes well beyond MZFW allowing aircraft which do truly have the capability of lifting large cargo loads when light on passengers as if there was no limit, and that was causing aircraft to make much higher profits than they should, including aircraft like the modern widebodies from Boeing and Airbus. With the MZFW, it doesn't matter how much it can carry, it will only get as much as is allowed between the empty weight and the MZFW.

I have updated the weights on all of the BAC 1-11s so they should be able to carry the right amount of passengers and cargo now.

[DaveB]

Exactly so Chris

We made hay while the sun shone with aircraft like the Trident3 and Vanguard, both of which, since the introduction of MZFW show realistic operating figures Previous to this, their U/C would've collapsed at the ramp! It was fun making the extra money but the current setup is better

ATB

DaveB

[Independance]

not the capacity in "freighter" configuration, something that the 1-11 has never been used for anyway.

Not exactly true.

There is one 1-11 with large freight door, which was used as pure freighter. Delivered to Tarom, then
Anglo Cargo had it. Then the plane went to Nigeria, and now it is stored in Bucuresti. Romania.

also those 1-11 for Oman AF have large freighter doors.


And what about increasing pax load on 500????

Regards
Tomasz

[CAPFlyer]

99 was the "standard" outfit for the 1-11 500, so no it won't be changed.

[Independance]

Standard on 500 was 89 plus twenty...

89 of 300 plus 20 on new one.

[DaveB]

Hi Tomasz

The 3 Omani 1-11's with freight doors are I suppose a different aircraft series to those already included on the database being 485G. As they're based around the 475srs, I guess the figures would be much the same so.. perhaps if you wanted to operate them as freighters.. you could either add a new aircraft to the database or operate the 475 with zero pax and up the cargo to the MZFW. Of course.. you'd have to have cargo flights for them too A lot of variables to include there but in the end.. you have a 475 with a freight door and similar empty/MZFW figures so you only have the same amount of space/payload to play with

EDIT..
You posted as I did 'T' Concur on the 500's. We have ours configured for 119pax

ATB

DaveB

[Independance]

Hi Tomasz

The 3 Omani 1-11's with freight doors are I suppose a different aircraft series to those already included on the database being 485G...

Yes, indeed they are 485 those for Oman and the one for Anglo Cargo.

...perhaps if you wanted to operate them as freighters.. you could either add a new aircraft to the database or operate the 475 with zero pax and up the cargo to the MZFW...

No, for me, it is no need to add another one to database, if I want to operate my 400 as freighter, I just set ticket price at $1000, so the I have 0 pax and full cargo

EDIT..
You posted as I did 'T' Concur on the 500's. We have ours configured for 119pax

??? Mine is 99 How come???

Best Regard
Tomasz

[Quantum]

Hi guys,

Please refer to this post which goes some way to explaining why some aircraft pax capacities have been reduced. We are compiling a post to explain the ticket factor and how to apply the ticket factor to existing flightplans that you have. There were some aircfraft on FlyNET which had the passsengers capacities set at their maximum known seating as opposed to a more 'normal' seating capacity. Even with the higher capacity they were not big earners. FlyNET never restricted the passenger loads due to being overweight, although in many cases the aircraft exceeded their MZFW with the passenger load. Now, on FSA the client will not allow you to depart if you are overweight so you have to either reduce pax, cargo or fuel. Those aircraft which had the max capacities will now find that their payloads are restricted. To balance things out and allow types to continue to operate profitably, the ticket prices will be adjusted on those aircrafts. To counter this, the ' high density' pax capacities have been set to a more typical pax capacity for the type.

Regards

John