Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

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bagarie
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Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by bagarie » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:00 am

I get landing light penalty every time I use the MD80 by Leonardo software. I think the problem is the MD80 by Leonardo don't use the same variables of FSUIPC for the Landing Light like other airplanes.

Any chance to fix it?

Many thanks
Arnaldo

vaccaro
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by vaccaro » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:25 pm

Keep gear down util 1000 - 1200 feet AGL

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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by DaveB » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:02 pm

Wise words vaccaro :wink: The other alternative is to ensure your pressure is correctly set to your departure airfield (QNH or QFE will do). That way.. what you see on your alt will reflect the true AGL figure :) Does the MD80 have a radalt?? It should be ok to fly by that if it has one :wink:

ATB

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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by ruudopdeweegh » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:12 pm

During my previous flight I got a landing light penalty climbing through 10400 ft. I requested a review but no change. (A380)
This time I got a penalty again climbing through 10239 ft to be precise(MD11). I will ask for review again and hope it will be "repaired".
Regarding this problem the client is not running pretty well !!
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:17 pm

Those penalties were denied because they were properly charged. You are supposed to turn off your landing lights BEFORE 10,000 feet MSL, not after. Between 1000 feet AGL and 10,000 feet MSL, the landing light logic is not checked, so you usually have 2000 or 3000 feet to turn you lights off at minimum before being penalized. The rule hasn't changed, just the detection method making the old "1000 foot grace" on the 10,000 foot rule irrelevant.
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by Quantum » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:20 pm

Hi,

There are some aircraft which get 'confused' regards the landing lights and switch positions especially where there is an animated landing light which extends. When you get settled into the climb and are on autopilot, minimise your sim and look see if the client says your landing lights are on/true or off/false. If you think you have switched the lights off, but the client shows them as on, it is most likely an issue with the model you are using.

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John
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by ruudopdeweegh » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:50 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:Those penalties were denied because they were properly charged. You are supposed to turn off your landing lights BEFORE 10,000 feet MSL, not after. Between 1000 feet AGL and 10,000 feet MSL, the landing light logic is not checked, so you usually have 2000 or 3000 feet to turn you lights off at minimum before being penalized. The rule hasn't changed, just the detection method making the old "1000 foot grace" on the 10,000 foot rule irrelevant.
I replied before this evening, but the message disappeared.
These penalties are incorrectly charged. In real life the lights should be switched off passing FL100 and that could be between FL90 and FL110
Normally I switch tem off/on between FL101 and FL105
If I switch my lights off climbing through let's say FL88, FsPassengers gives me a penalty as well
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Quantum
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by Quantum » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:56 pm

Hi,

When you are using two progs to record your flights and the penalty criteria clash with each other then I guess you have to decide which prog you want to accept the penalty from. You could always write to the developers of PSP and ask them to change their rules. Sorry for the rant but you can't have it all ways.

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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by ruudopdeweegh » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:02 pm

Quantum wrote:Hi,

When you are using two progs to record your flights and the penalty criteria clash with each other then I guess you have to decide which prog you want to accept the penalty from. You could always write to the developers of PSP and ask them to change their rules. Sorry for the rant but you can't have it all ways.
John
No that's right! :-) As their rules are correct and not the one of FsAirlines regarding the lights, I wrote FsAirlines
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by hezza » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:48 pm

At the end of the day is it not the PIC who decides when to turn lights on and off?
It is equipment manufacturer's operating guidelines that are supposed to be adhered to not air industry governing bodies', and some of them only advise that turn-off lights be on when below a certain level not fixed lights.
That level is usually 10000ft but can be FL100 and in US/Canada often FL180, and only within 20nm of an airfield (or other see-and-avoid areas).
Some aircraft aren't even equipped with landing lights!

At least FSAirlines has one clear simple rule.

G
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by DaveB » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:43 am

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head there Graham :wink:

The 'entire' landing light 'thing' isn't really within RW parameters for older aircraft.. in mind I list almost everything British-built of a certain age. Vickers/early BAC had landing lights which extend from the wing and as such, were susceptible to damage from airflow and were retracted as soon as the aircraft had a positive rate of climb.. turned off too. This just isn't possible for many of these aircraft when operating in an FSA environment as you either have to climb like you're trying to aviod a mountain to keep your airspeed down or fly outside the aircrafts takeoff envelope. One saving grace with MOST of these models is that the landing lights are keyed with the main gear so when the gear goes up.. so do the landing lights. I make do with that and pretend it's real :wink:

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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by CAPFlyer » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:25 am

I'll say this again - you can turn off the landing lights anywhere between 1000 feet AGL and 10,000 feet MSL. You can do it at 9,999 feet MSL and be "legal", you can do it at 1001 feet AGL and be "legal".

BTW, most airlines, the rule is once you clean up the airplane the landing lights go off and when you make your terminal descent (i.e. your first descent below transition level) your landing lights come on. Most airlines specify a "maximum" transition level of 10,000 simply because 18,000 is a lot of wear on the landing lights, so anything with a TL of 10,000 feet MSL or below it's on/off below TL, and anything with a TL above 10,000 MSL, it's on/off below 10,000.

We've had this discussion more than once in the existence of FlyNET. We've gone around in circles every time and it comes back to the same point - those who are complaining about it choose not to make a minor adjustment to the way they fly to keep from getting penalized. The vast majority of users have no problem with the rule and complying with it so at the end of the day, we're not going to bow to the few who have a problem just because they don't want to turn the landing lights on or off within a normally very large range of vertical space.

BTW, I just flew 2 flights in a BAC 1-11 400, one out of El Alto and another out of Campo Grande (both in South America) and turned my lights out at 1100 feet AGL (just after retracting the flaps at 180 knots. I turn them back on when I put my landing gear down, and didn't take a single penalty. I think that's a pretty wide range of operations.
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Re: Landing Light penalty on MD80 by Leonardo

Post by ruudopdeweegh » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:53 pm

Got some information from real life Austrian pilots and real life ATC people from EHAM.

In most cases it is a company/aircraft rule when to switch off/on landinglights.
It is certainly not an official rule to keep the lights on/off above FL100 but from the company itself as the mechanical landinglights wear to fast with higher speed like > 250 kts. (Schiphol ATC)

In the ATIS of Vienna it is heard "landinglights on below FL100". (Austrian pilots)

Fokker 70/100 procedure says: "Landinglights on when lining up, not before."and "Keep the lights unfolded to cool down after touch down".
and "It is certainly not recommenfable to have the landinglights on in case of a snowstorm or fog". (Austrian pilot).

This means the client should not give any light penalty at all. Because of FSpax I switch them now on/off between FL99 and FL100 but don't worry. I can live with it and will inform my pilots accordingly.
Regards,
Ruud.
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