Maintenance times.

You are missing something, or have a cool idea for us ? Tell us here !

Moderator: FSAirlines Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
joefremont
FSAirlines Developer
Posts: 3694
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 5:46 am
Location: KSFO

Maintenance times.

Post by joefremont » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:39 pm

Hi flyers

I had a pilot complain about how long it took to get there aircraft through a C check and though I would bring it up here to see what everyone thinks about the time for aircraft maintenance.

Currently an A check takes 1 day, a B check 3, a C check 7 and a D check 14.

What do you think is that time too long, too short or just right. These times were set when the site was first created many years ago and we have never really had a reason to revisit them.
Image
I've sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from the lands.

User avatar
BVU-951
Flight Attendant
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:47 am
Location: Northampton UK
Contact:

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by BVU-951 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm

I personally think they are just right. As it helps make pilots take more care with their flying.
I expect it is only the Antonov 225 pilots that would want shorter maintenance times, as all other aircraft can be replaced with a spare while one is being worked on.
Image

jato0072
Ticket Agent
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by jato0072 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:24 am

Yes. Please leave it. Maintenance takes time. Which is why additional airframes are good to have in the fleet to keep operations moving.
Image

User avatar
Cat
Chief Pilot
Posts: 818
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:56 am

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by Cat » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:32 pm

Looking at what is involved in the real world, I think we are spot on for virtual vs real world in our "accelerated life cycle" of virtual airline flying.

It should also be noted that our virtual airlines can avoid more lengthy and costly B-C-D checks by simply performing A checks before their aircraft reaches 95% overall status. I am unsure of the C and D check status thresholds, but anyone who runs their aircraft down that far needs an "expensive time out" anyway. Crashes that require a D check I sometimes think there should be a maximum fpm number where Humpty Dumpty can no longer be put back together again, the aircraft is written off at scrap value and the airline has it removed from service. NO I am not pushing for that as the haters will start posting feverishly. I'm just saying we have it far easier than the real world and our system needs no changes.

Real world maintenance:

A check
The A check is performed approximately every 400-600 flight hours, or every 200–300 flights, depending on aircraft type. It needs about 50-70 man-hours, and is usually performed in an airport hangar. The A check takes a minimum of 10 man-hours. The actual occurrence of this check varies by aircraft type, the flight cycle count, or the number of hours flown since the last check. The occurrence can be delayed by the airline if certain predetermined conditions are met.

B check
The B check is performed approximately every 6-8 months. It takes about 160-180 man-hours, depending on the aircraft, and is usually completed within 1–3 days at an airport hangar. A similar occurrence schedule applies to the B check as to the A check. B checks are increasingly incorporated into successive A checks, i.e. checks A-1 through A-10 complete all the B check items.

C check
The C check is performed approximately every 20–24 months, or a specific number of actual flight hours (FH), or as defined by the manufacturer. This maintenance check is much more extensive than the B check, requiring a large majority of the aircraft's components to be inspected. This check puts the aircraft out of service for 1–2 weeks. The aircraft must not leave the maintenance site until it is completed. It also requires more space than A and B checks, therefore, it is usually carried out in a hangar at a maintenance base. The effort needed to complete a C check is up to 6,000 man-hours.

D check
The D check, sometimes known as a "heavy maintenance visit" (HMV), is by far the most comprehensive and demanding check for an airplane. This check occurs approximately every 6-10 years. It is a check that more or less takes the entire airplane apart for inspection and overhaul. Even the paint may need to be completely removed for complete inspection of the fuselage metal skin. Such a check can generally take up to 50,000 man-hours, and 2 months to complete depending on the number of technicians involved. It also requires the most space of all maintenance checks, and as such must be performed at a suitable maintenance base. The requirements and the tremendous effort involved in this maintenance check make it by far the most expensive, with total costs for a single D check in the multi million dollar range.

Because of the nature and the cost of a D check, most airlines — especially those with a large fleet — have to plan D checks for their aircraft years in advance. Often, older aircraft being phased out of a particular airline's fleet are either stored or scrapped upon reaching their next D check, due to the high costs involved in comparison to the aircraft's value. On average, a commercial aircraft undergoes two, or three, D checks before being retired.

Manufacturers often underestimate the cost of the D check. Boeing underestimates the cost for four of its aircraft, and the expectation is that they have underestimated it for the B787-9 which in 2018 had not been in service for long enough to have been put through a D check.
Image

bbugday
Ticket Agent
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by bbugday » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm

I personally think that the maintenance times should be as real as it gets otherwise there will be no point of having this function.
The time required for maintenance to be completed has been explained in detail above.
Even changing an aircrafts seating configuration should require the aircraft to be hangered as this is how it is done in real life. The length of this task should vary depening on the aircraft.
A config change on a 737 should take less than a 777 for example.

User avatar
joefremont
FSAirlines Developer
Posts: 3694
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 5:46 am
Location: KSFO

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by joefremont » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:17 pm

bbugday wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm
... Even changing an aircrafts seating configuration should require the aircraft to be hangered as this is how it is done in real life. The length of this task should vary depening on the aircraft.
A config change on a 737 should take less than a 777 for example.
I agree with that. I would like to rework the seat management features and have some ideas on how it should work, including costs and time required to change seats, and hopefully more types of seats, but there are a couple projects I need to do before we can talk to much about that.
Image
I've sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from the lands.

bbugday
Ticket Agent
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by bbugday » Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:01 pm

joefremont wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:17 pm
bbugday wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm
... Even changing an aircrafts seating configuration should require the aircraft to be hangered as this is how it is done in real life. The length of this task should vary depening on the aircraft.
A config change on a 737 should take less than a 777 for example.
I agree with that. I would like to rework the seat management features and have some ideas on how it should work, including costs and time required to change seats, and hopefully more types of seats, but there are a couple projects I need to do before we can talk to much about that.
Perhaps even line maintenance can be added. The ability to perform short checks and maintenance on aircraft after the flights during turn around or between flights.

Some more cabin configurations would be nice as well. For example a premium economy config or even a suite class config as a product that is more prestigious than the fisrt class especially for aircraft with higher capacity that can accomodate this such as B748 or A380 or for VA's that utilize long haul aircraft on ultra long haul routes which will generate more revenue from the flights.
Also option to add equipment to aircraft such as wifi/satcom etc, in flight entertainment.... These can be things that increase airline reputation. This will all add extra realism to the management side of this hobby which is one of the things I like the most about FSA.

fackprod
Ticket Agent
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by fackprod » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:34 am

I too commend Joe on the inbuilt management realism. I think there has to be a balance between features and workload for FSA Admin. If we add in Wi-Fi etc it follows that ticket prices on aircraft with these features would also rise. A quick random check shows tkt prices VHHH-EGLL already range from v$540 to v$1200. Assuming VAs with higher end pricing are still attracting full psngr loads, this suggests that charging higher tkt prices for additional in flight features can already be accommodated with minimal programming workload. Perhaps it is as simple as adding an extra tick box (or 3 or 4) to the aircraft description page. If a VA chooses to tick YES to WiFi, in flight entertainment, dutyfree purchases etc then that VA can simply adjust tkt prices accordingly. This way, this feature becomes VA specific to use or not use. I would think any links to Reputation would be difficult to implement fairly.

A short term walk around maintenance fee between flights could be added into the existing Flight Financials (fuel costs, catering, LANDING FEE etc). I know we already have parking fees but these fall more into VA operational fees than direct flight costs. And VAs that do not have Advanced Finances turned off are exempt from the parking fees (I represent one of these VAs so would also be affected). The Landing Fees would need to also apply to Diverted flights and at multi leg stops. Fees could be linked to airport size which is already recorded in Joe's database.

So simply a new Landing Fee or is it a Short walk around Maint fee or two fees! If a maint fee there might have to be a discount for a VA Home airport as its own staff would provide the service.

Refitting an aircraft seating config should have a related time factor and cost. We do this already for major conversions DC3 to DC3T and 747s to 747 freighters as examples.

Some thoughts to ponder.
Alastair
RED Global Airlines

User avatar
joefremont
FSAirlines Developer
Posts: 3694
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 5:46 am
Location: KSFO

Re: Maintenance times.

Post by joefremont » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:36 pm

Couple ideas here.

The idea of adding additional lux features like wifi is not a bad one, but I think of flights in years past where they gave things like actual food wonder how that would compare.

I do admit the idea of having short term interval maintenance does not appeal to me, how would it work in practice? A one hour service that would repair some small percent of damage? Would it count as a maintenance as far as allowing the aircraft to fly/be sold? To me its just adds more complications, but convince me otherwise.

As far as landing fees go, when we added parking fees I specifically decided not to add landing fees because they increase the cost of doing a flight, without really adding anything. With the parking fees it gave the incentive to not leave your AC parked at expensive major airports for long periods, but how would landing fees change anything?

the passenger formulas price may need some tweaking, but that is a subject for a different topic.
Image
I've sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from the lands.

Post Reply