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Fuel Dumping

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:53 pm
by BVU-951
I wonder if it could be possible for the client to automatically dump excess fuel, so planes do not land overweight. The airline of course would have to pay for the fuel that is dumped.

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:29 pm
by joefremont
That might be possible. It might help those flight sim models which have historically used too little fuel and where there is no good fix (XP and the MSFS 78X for example). Of course in real life many aircraft are not equipped with fuel dumping systems and there are restrictions on where you can dump. I found this on wikipedia.
Fuel-dumping operations are coordinated with air traffic control, and precautions are taken to keep other aircraft clear of such areas. Fuel dumping is usually accomplished at a high enough altitude (minimum 6,000 feet, AGL), where the fuel will dissipate before reaching the ground. Fuel leaves the aircraft through a specific point on each wing, usually closer to the wingtips and farther away from engines, and initially appears as more liquid than vapor. Specific areas have been designated where fuel dumping is allowed to avoid damage or harm where the fuel may drop; generally speaking, this is above seas or unpopulated areas above land.
On the types of aircraft that have fuel dumping installed it says
...the Boeing 737 (all models), the DC-9/MD80 and Boeing 717, the A320 family and various regional jet ("RJ") aircraft do not have fuel dump systems installed. In the event of an emergency requiring a return to the departure airport, the aircraft circles nearby in order to consume fuel to get down to within the maximum structural landing weight limit, or, if the situation demands, simply lands overweight without delay.[1] Modern aircraft are designed with possible overweight landings in mind, but this is not done except in cases of emergency, and various maintenance inspections are required afterwards.

Long-range twin jets such as the Boeing 767 and the Airbus A300, A310, and A330 may or may not have fuel dump systems, depending upon how the aircraft was ordered, since on some aircraft they are a customer option. Three- and four-engine jets like the Lockheed L-1011, McDonnell Douglas DC-10 / MD-11, Boeing 747 and Airbus A340 usually have difficulty meeting the requirements of FAR 25.119 near maximum structural takeoff weight, thus most of those have jettison systems. A Boeing 757 has no fuel-dump capability as its maximum landing weight is similar to the maximum take-off weight.

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm
by Cat
For FS9/FSX users there is a freeware fuel dump gauge you can add to any panel.cfg. It can be found on AVSIM.

Not sure tho how it would interact with the Client's "fuel cheat" parameters. I personally do not use it as the aircraft I normally fly do not have fuel dump valves. One can burn a bunch of fuel in a hurry at full flaps and gear down, maintaining level attitude in a hold tho. Your virtual pax won't like the noise levels :shock: but we don't have any passenger grading systems (yet :lol: )

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:41 pm
by BVU-951
Modern aircraft are designed with possible overweight landings in mind, but this is not done except in cases of emergency, and various maintenance inspections are required afterwards.

Perhaps with this in mind an aircraft that lands overweight could be forced to have an A check. The cost being deducted before any multipliers are used.

Alan

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:49 pm
by Cat
With all the wide variety of sim formats and especially MSFS2020's horrid fuel consumption rates, making the overweight landing advisory into a penalty would probably discourage a lot of users, especially the ones who are just discovering flight simulators and really do not understand all the nuances of real flight operations like experienced veterans/real pilots do.

I don't know of any long term VA operator who will be thrilled with paying for A checks daily and putting aircraft out of service 24 hours. All this will do is discourage established airlines from hiring new pilots.

Just my opinion of course. If FSAirlines becomes so complicated and complex that only "hardcore simmers" will want to use it, it then effectively does not serve the purpose of providing enjoyment of airline operations to new/casual pilots.

"Hardcore VA's" can always set their own rules within their SOP's regarding pilots and the overweight landing advisory... aka 3x and you get grounded or something.

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:32 am
by fackprod
Exceeding max landing weights should be addressed by individual VAs and their position on realism, in my opinion. Too complex otherwise and the comments around discouraging simmers are valid. Time is always an enemy. If an aircraft is auto grounded for 24 hrs this issue (time) would be compounded. Having the ability to dump fuel may become the norm rather than the exception. We would also have to restrict where fuel could be dumped, not over land. If you have to detour to dump fuel over water then almost certainly the equivalent excess would be burnt off in s couple of low level go arounds with flaps and wheels down. (I did that very thing just a few days ago).

The existing warning msge is helpful in that it has the potential to extend pilots experience and attitude to flight planning, for those that want to know more. Fuel and package and aircraft weights are interlinked. This also helps pilots to better understand the importance of fuel calcs and is a more subtle and perhaps helpful learning than blanket penalties.

My opinions only of course.
And
Hats off to FSA Admin. You guys do an outstanding job in building/maintaining our tracking systems. Thank you.
Alastair

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:05 pm
by BVU-951
Ok, I agree that we need to keep things simple, but I also think there should be some sort of penalty for landing overweight. Even if it just removes the excess fuel.
That would stop people from over filling planes. And would correct the incorrect fuel consumption that occurs with the different sims.

Just my thoughts

Alan

The closer to reality, the more I like it !

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:05 pm
by joefremont
Well the real penalty is damage to the aircraft. The way the client works is it calculates the kinetic energy involved when the aircraft hits the ground. It assumes that at 200 fpm at MLW there will be no additional damage, anything above that the damage to the gear and hull goes up in proportion to the KE at impact.

Re: Fuel Dumping

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:45 pm
by BVU-951
The new client update should help to solve the problem :D