GA Aircraft Cargo

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joefremont
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GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by joefremont » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:00 pm

I was recently asked in a support ticket to change the cargo capacity of the DA-40. Currently the DA-40's are set as 79kg while the cessna 172 is 378 kg.

The also pointed out this document, in which they said the useful load was 400kg, but I pointed out that includes the fuel and pilot. But as I read it it shows the the maximum load in the baggage compartment as about 50kg.

http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin ... mplete.pdf

Now I do think the cessna is probably too high. More recently I have tried to get aircraft cargo to be based on there cargo/baggage compartment rather than just using the maximum payload. In aircraft where seats are installed and we don't have the weight capacity of the cargo/baggage compartment using a 250 kg per cubic meter rule (15.5 lb per cubic foot). So if I followed that rule the capacity of the DA-40 should be 50kg.

I am sure on many of these small GA aircraft the rear seats can be folded down or take out and extra cargo added, but I would like to come up with a consistent rule on this and would like everyone's feedback on this.
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by joefremont » Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:35 am

For now I have reset the C170, C172, C172N, C182 and C192RG to 180 kg each, which is actually an increase for the 182's. I think the 182s can probably carry more and will look into that.

Edit: I set the 182's at 360kg as they are real haulers as the 172 is more the trainer. But would like to find a way for a better policy on it.

I would assume many GA aircraft are like peoples personal cars, there may be some space in the trunk, but you can fold down the rear seat and get more space, is that true with GA aircraft?
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Cat
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:16 am

Some GA aircraft like the 208, Kodiak, 206, 207, PC12 have removable seats for "multi mission role" but they are all "user variable". While you would never remove the executive interior of a 208 or PC12, the more rugged "utility" version you could. So it's a wide open market and going to be very hard and time consuming to get it right for each and every type. Unless you start adding more "types" based on interiors and I don't think we need to go there .... things are pretty complicated as it is now. LOL
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Ruben837
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Ruben837 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:06 am

Hello!

The real question is, what are we considering as "cargo"? If it is the baggage capacity, please check this:

http://aeroatlanta.com/docs/aero-atlanta-c172sp-poh.pdf

In the page 2-7, you can find "baggage area - station 82 to 108: 120lbs" and "baggage area 2 - Station 108 to 142: 50lbs". That is a total of 170lbs or 77kg.

Now, the term "useful load" is the difference between ramp weight and basic empty weight, which means that as you said, includes fuel, the pilot, passengers.. So now I changed my mind and I think the DA-40 is right, but the C172 is still excessive.

Last question: is it possible to change the DA-40 seats to business as they are in the cessna? and also, the weight of my passengers is 102kg and it is really dangerous to load a GA airplane as a C172 or a DA40 with 102kg passengers on the rear seats mainly because of the high momentum.

Is there a way to fix some of this? Every time I book a charter my airplane is load with 3 pax "102kg" and just 4kg of cargo (instead of the full 50) with the tanks not filled more than 30%. In real life, this could have sense. but are we considering real-life problems, or just loading up our airplanes and making money?

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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:05 pm

You can always self limit your pax count in the seating tool on the aircraft information page. In FSAirlines there is no distinction between pax weights in First, Business or Economy - aka we don't fly kids or if we do they have so much stuff with them they weigh in as adults. LOL

The actual weight and moment balance in your sim is not affected by FSAirlines. Only the total weights - you can move that weight around in your airplane to your hearts' content. AND you are not NOT REQUIRED to match the weights exactly - sim to client so if you put kids in the back seat of your sim model and the MZFW shows off a bit between sim and client, ignore it and go fly.

What you cannot do is decrease the sim payload only to add more fuel. You would have to decrease your client payload to add more fuel.

Also remember your pax bags take up some of your "cargo space". This is a fairly confusing item as of late. Paying cargo is added after the passenger bags are loaded. In many small GA planes, if you are full of pax, you won't have room for much, if any paying cargo on top of that.

And one more note then I shall shush - many real aircraft manufacturers "pad" their performance numbers significantly. Showing good range and payloads but when push comes to shove you cannot fly them very far at all stuffed to the maximum zero fuel weight. With top tier airline ratings of 120, FSAirlines will load planes to the MZFW limit unless you set other limits in the seating chart tool. So at the ramp we load the fuel and then start tossing out cargo to get down to MTOW using the "change" button. In small GA planes you may end up "bumping a passenger for fuel" to fly the distance you desire.
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Cat
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:02 pm

One thing I have noted is that for many aircraft the real world Operating weights and FSAirlines weights are off by a bit, that may be due to variations of the same aircraft and there is no way FSAirlines can account for every variation of every type of airplane. So some give and take has to be in order for a "one size to fit all" approach.
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Ruben837 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:20 pm

Ok understood! Thank you :)

The only thing left is: The C172 seats are "business" while the DA40 are "economy".

Of course, this affects the profit. Can we fix this so I can load "business" passengers on the DA40ng?

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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:35 pm

Yes I would vote for that as well, I think all GA aircraft need as much help as they can get!

I'm also seeing the "crew size" as 2 and that should be 1 as well.
UPDATE: I am seeing the default seating now as 3 business class seats. Thanks to Joe!
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by joefremont » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:18 pm

Yes, I fixed 5 aircraft in the DB that were less than 10 pax and had the business seat factor set to 2.

In the case of the 172 it looks like baggage should be 120lb/55kg when the rear seat is installed. I suppose it would not be safe to fly with cargo on the rear seat unsecured. I have not found anything showing what the allowed payload is with the rear seat removed.

I had picked 180 kg because looking at the 3777 revenue flights flown by the 172 in 2020, only 76 had a cargo payload more than 180 kg and I wanted to reduce the screaming. But only 254 use more than 78kg, so maybe we can get away with changing it to that.
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Ruben837
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Ruben837 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:14 pm

Yes, the problem is that the profit is going to decrease a lot, and that does not help GA.

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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:27 pm

Ahhh, this is how it's done - fold the seats down and/or remove them completely and then use a cargo net just aft of the door frames.

http://mountainwaveaviation.com/attachment-methods/

I think I would want a "net wrap" on the cargo itself as well to keep it from flying around back there in any turbulence as well as keeping the CG where you want it.
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by joefremont » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:48 am

Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:27 pm
Ahhh, this is how it's done - fold the seats down and/or remove them completely and then use a cargo net just aft of the door frames.

http://mountainwaveaviation.com/attachment-methods/

I think I would want a "net wrap" on the cargo itself as well to keep it from flying around back there in any turbulence as well as keeping the CG where you want it.
Interesting that the link you gave the make nets they make are "Currently Available For Cessna 170s, 180s, 182s, and 185s.", not the 172, the most built aircraft in history.

But you would need a net or something like that, you just can't put big packages on the back seat unrestrained.
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Ruben837
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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Ruben837 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:57 am

Hello!

I took a look at the aircraft DB, and the DA40NG default configuration is still three economy seats, not business.

Can you fix it? From what I read, it looks like Joe already modified a da40 but definitely not the "NG" version which is the one I fly.

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Re: GA Aircraft Cargo

Post by Cat » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:28 pm

yeah, that appears to be something out of the scope of my permissions and abilities as an assistant administrator. In the aircraft editor, the default seating is unavailable to me, so unfortunately you will have to wait for Joe to get to it.
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