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Change Cargo

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:46 pm
by Kambadin

I fly at the moment the 757-200f, but I have a Problem. When I load the full cargo (39 Tons) then I have a max fuel on landing 1,5 Tons therefore I would be low on fuel. I would like to change the cargovolume in the client even if the take-off weight is ok.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:18 am
by joefremont
I am not quite certain what your asking for.

Right now fuel plus cargo can not go above max takeoff weight, so if you load more fuel you have the ability to reduce cargo in the client so you don't exceed MTOW.

You can limit the amount of cargo from the route.

If your landing with too much fuel and getting the landing weight exceeded warning you just need to estimate your fuel better.
There are probably cases where the MLW is incorrect in our database and if that's the case for an aircraft you're using, do the research and help us fix it.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:04 am
by Kambadin
I canĀ“t change the cargo when:
zfw+fuel < Takeoff weight

Bsp.: 90,7t ZFW + 6t fuel = 96,7 t GW

max. Takoff weight = 116,1 ---> GW is lower then max. Takeoff weight

I need for the Fly 2000 kg fuel i have 4000 kg (incl. 60 min overtime and alternativ Airport) over on landing.
Now i 2500 kg over the max. Landing weight.
I will change the cargo before Start in the client when i fly with this Plane. When i fly with a other plane i need not a limit.
I can change the cargo actually when the max. Takeoff weight to high.

Sorry for my English.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:47 am
by joefremont
There is a way to do this, when you setup the route there is an option for limiting the amount of cargo the flight will carry.

I was researching this and was about to say you were doing it wrong when I came across what may be an error in the boeing documents, if you find the performance summary page in this document. ... s/757f.pdf

You will see that MZFW - MLW for pounds its 210,000 - 200,000 = 10,000 lb different.
But in Metric is 92250 - 90720 = 1530kg.

Well 10,000kb does not equal 1530kg, its more like 4545kg a difference of about 3000kg. I will assume the english units are correct and update the database accordingly.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:04 pm
by Kambadin
This is ok. 4500 kg is a good value. Thanks

Can you check the ma. Cargo by the 767-200 ERF? 35t are to low?! Is lower then by the 757-200F.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:03 am
by joefremont
I did some quick searching and I am not certain there is a 767-200 ERF. There is nothing in the boeing doc, maybe we should convert them all to 767-300F and be done with it.

Edit: I think the -200ERF are aircraft converted from -200ER passenger aircraft to all cargo. As such there weights would still be the same as the original -200ER. Which they are.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:41 am
by Kambadin
When the 767-200 er passenger covert to the 767-200 ERF then take away seats then reduce the tare. When tare lower then i can more cargo load.
I have no plan what weight a seat, but 25 kg pro seat (with all holder and equipment) is a good value. then 290 seats x 25 kg are 7250 kg more cargo.
35557 kg cargo + 7250 kg extra cargo = 42807 kg cargo.
A 767-300F has 58 t cargo then is the 767-200 ERF in the mid from 757-200F and 767-300F

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:07 pm
by Harvester
This helps maybe:

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:05 pm
by Kambadin
Perfect. Thank you.

@joefremont Please correct the Aircraft data. :-)

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:30 am
by Cat
Regarding this problem with max zero fuel weight = max landing weight, the Cessna 208 Caravan is the same. The only recourse we as operators have is to haul a maximum of 5 passengers - changing the seats to biz class to make the same income but thus gaining needed weight for fuel upon landing.

5 pax @ 224 = 1120 lbs max cargo capacity is 2028 lbs empty weight is 5150 this totals 8298 lbs. max landing / zero fuel weight is 8500
so you can now land with 200 lbs (35 mins) and not trip the "exceeded max landing weight" trigger.

With default passengers of 8 economy plus 1 business passenger, FSA will still add 1133 lbs of cargo to bring the load to max zero fuel weight. Operators have no ability to trade cargo for fuel without modifying each route (which is almost impossible for large VA's). So it's either land with no fuel and get a huge penalty or eat the "exceeded max landing weight" advisory.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:35 pm
by joefremont
We had a similar problem with the 206. Based on Cessna's specs the MLW is the same as the MZFW, which obviously can't be. We fixed it by adjusting the MLW up to include a fuel reserve, and we should probably do the same here, adjust either the MZFW or the MLW to allow realistic fuel reserve and max payload.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:11 am
by Buschpilot

But it also works with a trick and some reckoning.
A searate button to adjust PAX and cargo (as with the fuel) would obviously be much easier.

My example with the C208-Cargo.

The correct loading (fuel and cargo) in the C208-Cargo is a little cumbersome/difficult.
My calculation with the C208 Cargoversion would look like this ...

We have:
- empty weight = 4890lbs
- weight without fuel = 8499lbs (up to this weight, cargo is automatically loaded)
- max. landing weight = 8499lbs
- max. takeoff weight = 8807lbs (until here we still fill fuel)

100NM = approximately 242lbs of fuel consumption

We must be at landing below 8499lbs.

I then calculate so ...
250lbs of fuel for the flight distance of 100NM + 250lbs reserve to reach eventual alternative airport, makes a total fuel quantity of 500lbs ...
Thus, for me the C208 would have a takeoff weight of only 8650lbs, 500lbs of fuel and 3260lbs of cargo + 4890lbs of empty weight ...

How do we get this with the tracker?
- max. landing Weight (8499lbs) minus 8150lbs (3260lbs cargo + 4890lbs empty Weight) = 349lbs ...
- C208-Cargo is thus with 349lbs over the max. takeoff weight (8807lbs), so we then have a takeoff weight of 9156lbs ...
- only if we are above the max. takeoff weight, the load can be returned to the max. reduce takeoff weight ...
- now reduce cargo by 349lbs, so we get the max. takeoff weight (8807lbs) ...
- connect we reduce the fuel quantity (this one can always change) by 157lbs (8807lbs minus 8650lbs), so that we can reach our takeoff weight of 8650lbs ...

So I am really on the flight under the max. landing weight, I plan only with 151lbs over max. landing weight of 8499lbs.
If I then 250lbs fly, I am with 8400lbs under the max. landing weight.

So I have 8499lbs (max landing weight) plus 151lbs, a takeoff weight of 8650lbs ...
We pull off 250lbs (disposable fuel), make 8400lbs, minus 250lbs reserve fuel, make 8150lbs, which remains for cargo plus empty weight ...

Sounds harder than it really is.
Real pilots must also calculate their tributary and the flight weight.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:12 pm
by joefremont
I increased the landing weights for the 208's by 50kg to help avoid this problem.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:19 pm
by Cat
So instead of having to change airplanes on a case by case basis, would it not be easier to adjust the "overweight" gizmo in the client to allow pilots to reduce load to any amount they want? say I need that 224 lbs for reserve fuel, sorry Mr. last passenger but you just got bumped. OR have the ability to just bump some cargo .... as pax baggage is counted automatically and not part of the paying cargo, that would be the other option for pilots looking to make MLW at landing destination. I just don't know how the client works with the program as I don't code, but I would think the "final manifest" would be able to reflect the pilot adjusted payload.

If that client feature is possible, FSA can still load to max zfw as always and now it would be up to the pilot to make sure he/she is not carrying more payload than they can handle with adequate fuel reserves to meet the MLW. Ticket agents are always trying to sell more than the plane can carry anyway, this would not be "unrealistic" for the pilot in command to say ... ok we can't carry all this .... something's gotta stay.

Then the MLW weights for each aircraft can go back to reflecting what they are in the real world and not "juiced" to get around the MLW advisory. If the ZFW and the MLW are the same, it's a no brainer (just like in the real world) you can't carry full payload .... Companies like Cessna are notorious for "jacking" their specs in such manners to make their aircraft look more capable than they are .... like cruise airspeed .... listed in TRUE not indicated and many sim pilots do not understand the difference so they scratch their heads wondering how their Caravan is supposed to go 185 kts cruise when the indicated limit is 175 kts. :shock:

After a trial period to get everyone used to the proposed new feature in the client, down the road the "advisory" could then be changed to a 5% penalty as there are no excuses left for the pilots in command not to make MLW.

Re: Change Cargo

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm
by Buschpilot
A very good idea from Sam!
I would like that too.
Is it going to be implemented?