Some thoughts on Penalties.

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joefremont
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by joefremont » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:52 am

Hey Vegas, thanks for the kind words, glad my efforts are being noticed.

I am sure many of you have noticed we do have a 'divert' button on the client already, press it land anywhere you want, and end the flight without penalty, and without income. Then start a new flight from the diverted airport to the final destination and the revenue is recognised. I did it myself just a few weeks ago.

The problem I see with disable buttons is they are too easy to abuse, especially if there is no reduction in rating and/or note on the flight report that penalties were disabled.

As far as beacon/strobes/nav lights, as you said, some aircraft have them and others don't, but every aircraft has at least one of them, so maybe as long as any of those are on your ok.

Going off aircraft name would be problematic, its too easy to change the title string to anything you want. I use mostly P3D and in its default mode it shows the title in the aircraft selection not make/model/airline as FSX does, so I have changed them all so they are more consistent and readable, including my copy of the JF DC-8 and Captain Sim B727.

Hard landing penalty when above 500fpm would be fine, along with damage to gear/frame.
Just for reference, since august 1, the average landing speed was -260fps, with around 9% having a landing speed of more than 500fps.
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wings138
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by wings138 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:30 pm

joefremont wrote:It may be reasonable to have ways for pilots and airlines to opt-out of some of the penalties.

When we get to having to repair idle aircraft and pay gate/parking fees, they may be part of an 'advanced finance' package that an airline can opt out of.

For pilots who just don't like the penalties we could have an option to turn them off and you would then have a 90% flight with the message of 'penalties disabled' and all the minor penalties would be off.
I have some thoughts on this with my experience with VAFinancials, I really liked a lot of features with it. There were bonus points for good landings, landings in bad weather, stuff like that. Okay the point I want to get into is the options with Penalties. They can all be turned off or on, so if you don't want the landing lights above 10,000 penalty but having landing lights at Airport you could do something like that. I am sure this is a big deal for programming, but it was little features like this that made the difference. There was no affect whether or not you used all, some or none of them.

I think that for all the flight reports I've looked at, most are getting over speed and landing light penalties. I would love to just say ok, let's turn off the 10,000 foot penalty and the overspeed penalty.

Now to another issue, the current client isn't working well with X-Plane, there are a lot of issues with not reading I think it is altitude, so they get a penalty on every flight. I'm sure this would be a hidden feature, but for those that have to use X-Plane it keeps them from getting good performances.

I have another little suggestion, how about some kind of sound when it detects an event like turning on Nav and Beacons. Or even a warning say 10 15 seconds before giving a penalty, sometimes I am not paying close enough attention and forget to hit the switch. It could even be a software option to turn off if the Pilot doesn't want them...
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wings138
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by wings138 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:35 pm

joefremont wrote: The problem I see with disable buttons is they are too easy to abuse, especially if there is no reduction in rating and/or note on the flight report that penalties were disabled.
I agree, buttons on the client are too easy to abuse. Any option should be in the airline options.
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Cat
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by Cat » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:03 pm

I think if a pilot clicks any "disable" feature, like Joe said above, it will reflect in overall rating. Good way to keep people from "beating the system".

Yeah we'll let you turn it off but you won't see a 100%. Regarding the aircraft in question (Lear Payware), why don't you just climb to 1K before raising the gear? There is no set law that says you have to get clean and mean and high speed right off the pavement. Just a thought. Lear will get to 1K in the blink of an eye, that seems better than taking the hit or not flying it at all. Sounds like a payware program glitch to me, how are you supposed to be legal with lights on inside the TCA without the gear down? Kind of a bummer cause it sounds like a cool add on.
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by VegasTim » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:24 pm

I am sure many of you have noticed we do have a 'divert' button on the client already, press it land anywhere you want, and end the flight without penalty, and without income. Then start a new flight from the diverted airport to the final destination and the revenue is recognised. I did it myself just a few weeks ago.
Wow I did not know that and have been here for years! :shock: I will have to add it to my pilot orientation documents and pass that great information along.

Yes you guys are right, some of our pilots have race car driver mentality ... their job to cheat and our job as owners/admin is to catch them. 8)

So whatever the new plan is regarding penalties, I think the most important aspect is to Keep It Simple and make it so individual pilots cannot easily get around it.
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Cat
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by Cat » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:07 pm

My final comment and I'll shush ..... I need clarification on an existing "penalty"
I am sure many of you have noticed we do have a 'divert' button on the client already, press it land anywhere you want, and end the flight without penalty, and without income. Then start a new flight from the diverted airport to the final destination and the revenue is recognised. I did it myself just a few weeks ago.
So reading into this, once you divert, you MUST make the next flight to the original destination or the "wrong airport" penalty kicks in?

That would explain a lot LOL

Happy Flying Everyone!
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joefremont
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by joefremont » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:51 pm

Cat wrote:My final comment and I'll shush ..... I need clarification on an existing "penalty"
So reading into this, once you divert, you MUST make the next flight to the original destination or the "wrong airport" penalty kicks in?
...
Well, actually, We don't do that. Eventually the booking times out, the pilot gets charged the cancellation fee, the airline never gets the revenue and most likely they have a pilot and an aircraft at an airport that needs to be relocated or have a route established to they can get back. An argument can be made that with most of us being part time flyers, we may not have time to get back to it before the penalty is imposed so hitting them with a wrong airport penalty is a bit harsh.

And Cat your comments are most welcome.
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Cat
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by Cat » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:04 pm

Ah OK, then me seeing a huge penalty long ago had to be coincidental with another pilot issue in the airline at the time. I've just avoided it since. LOL
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Curpling
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by Curpling » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:59 pm

Interesting to hear whats happening with this.

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joefremont
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by joefremont » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:09 am

Working on the client takes the longest because it's one thing I can't do on the train in the morning, so be patent, it is coming, so far here is what I am planning.

1) Parking Brake Penalty: Gone (already removed in beta v2.2.0.b3)

2) Landing Lights
- Add a button in the client with values 'Detect', 'On', 'Off' so you can manually turn them on or off in the client if it can't detect from the sim
- Landing lights would be required:
1) Within 5nm of take off airport when below 1000ft ALG and landing gear is down.
2) Within 5nm of landing airport when below 5000ft ALG.
- Landing lights may always be on when below 10000ft.
- When above 10000ft Penalty if on longer than 15 minutes.

3) 250kn Speed limit Below 10000ft.
1) Aircraft marked as Heavy Jets would have a 300kn speed limit for the first 15 minutes of the flight.
2) Any aircraft can press the 'High Speed Approved' button and exceed the limit. It would be noted in the report and there would be a 5% reduction in rating but it would not be considered a 'Penalty'. You can't press the 'High Speed Approved' button after the speed limit penalty has been triggered.
- Regardless of the above, we would make it so you would have to exceed the speed for one minute before the penalty was assessed.

4) Hard Landings
- New penalty 5%, would get if VS on landing was greater than 500fpm.

5) Exceeded maximum landing weight
- No reduction in rating but increased damage to landing gear and hull.

6) Navigation Lights
- New penalty 5%, At least one of the navigation lights, beacon or strobe must be on at all times from the time taxi starts (one minute grace period).

7) Low Altitude:
- New penalty 5%, If you are more than 5nm from either the departure or arrival airport and you have not pressed the divert button you must stay above 500ft ALG. In addition at some point in the flight you must exceed 1000ft ALG even if the departure and arrival airports are within 10nm of each other. The 500ft penalty does not apply if the source and destination airport are the same, but the 1000ft requirement still applies.

8 ) Disable Penalties
- Option in the settings to disable all minor penalties, reported in the flight status and a max rating of 90% (Major penalties would still apply).

9) For a flight to be considered a flight, you must exceed 1000ft ALG or travel at least 5nm from your point of takeoff or the client won't record it. If your departure and arrival are the same airport then you must travel at least 5nm.
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Vjacheslav
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by Vjacheslav » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Very nice! Thanks!

flugkapitan
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by flugkapitan » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:19 am

Hi Joe,

Looks good! Just so I'm clear on the landing lights, turning them on/off in the Client wouldn't also turn them on/off in the aircraft? It would just make the Client "see" them as on/off?

Regards,
Scott
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"...now let's get this thing on the hump - we've got some flyin' to do!" ~ Major Kong

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joefremont
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by joefremont » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:59 pm

flugkapitan wrote:Hi Joe,

Looks good! Just so I'm clear on the landing lights, turning them on/off in the Client wouldn't also turn them on/off in the aircraft? It would just make the Client "see" them as on/off?

Regards,
Scott
The idea is to just tell the client they are off or on, I don't think I would try to turn them on in the aircraft. If we can't detect if they are on or off our chances of turning them on or off would not be likely.
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petec267
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by petec267 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:26 pm

Joe,

My outfit (Bush and Island Charters) is new to FSAirlines, and I'm still finding my way around the system, and in fact haven't yet opened up for new pilots. Generally, I think you guys have done a fantastic job in putting everything together.

Bush and Island flies a lot of both floatplane and wheeled routes, landing at unrecognised airfields (lakes, bush strips etc) between the recognised departure and arrival airfields, and as I understand it the only way to avoid major penalties, is NOT to set the parking brake at the unrecognised landings, so your decision to abolish the parking brake penalty is great for us.

However, unless I have misread your thoughts, you then have to go and spoil it by introducing a penalty for flying under 500 ft, which means that everytime we land at an unrecognised lake or strip, sometimes 3 or 4 times during a flight, we will pick up penalties (and end up in a worse situation than we are now).

I know that FSAirlines is mostly populated by 'Big Tin' VA's, but if you could find some way to accomodate outfits like ours it would be appreciated, and would go a long way to encourage more 'low and slow' V.A.'s to join.
It's better to break ground and fly into the wind, than to break wind and fly into the ground
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Re: Some thoughts on Penalties.

Post by joefremont » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:32 pm

petec267 wrote:...
Bush and Island flies a lot of both floatplane and wheeled routes, landing at unrecognised airfields (lakes, bush strips etc) between the recognised departure and arrival airfields, and as I understand it the only way to avoid major penalties, is NOT to set the parking brake at the unrecognised landings, so your decision to abolish the parking brake penalty is great for us.

However, unless I have misread your thoughts, you then have to go and spoil it by introducing a penalty for flying under 500 ft, which means that everytime we land at an unrecognised lake or strip, sometimes 3 or 4 times during a flight, we will pick up penalties (and end up in a worse situation than we are now)...
We would not give multiple of the same penalty for the same flight, but you do raise a good point. At some point I would like to make a new type of flight which would be a 'destination' flight, where you start and end at the same airport but land near some specific lat/lon and then fly back. But for now if the flight begins and ends at the same location I will disable the under 500' penalty, but at some point in the flight you will need to be above 1000'ft
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