Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:01 am

CAPFlyer wrote: The FAA certification requirement is that the aircraft be able to empty out in 90 seconds. They limit the number of seats based on that. That's why the 737-900 is restricted as you say. I'm just going off what the type certificate sheets show.
Agreed, however use common sense. If the -900 is able to handle 189 with the same number of exits, then obviously the -800 can as well given their is the available floor space, which their is. Also you are still ignoring the fact that i have already named three airlines that ALL HAVE 189 seats on their -800's and are FLYING THEM. the FAA does not control the world. It might be the case of the said "limits" being imposed on US airlines, but there are still 203 other countries on planet earth that do not follow our rules.
CAPFlyer wrote: BTW, Boeing doesn't give max seating information on some of their aircraft in any of their documents, only "typical seating" arrangements, this includes the 787-8. However, if you look through their Detailed Technical Specifications on the 737, you'll find that every one of them says "FAA Exit Limit" next to the maximum capacity.
Agreed again. But what does typical mean? Normal or average. You cant have a normal or average if the plane cant physically seat that ammount. Thats like saying this 5 gallon tank typcially holds 8 gallons. Its not possible and eventually someone would catch on to it and would correct the info.
CAPFlyer wrote: BTW, what they say in a press release is worthless. They're PRESS RELEASES, they're put out there to make Boeing look good and nothing more. You show me technical documentation that shows my data is wrong and I'll look at it. But the FAA is the certification authority for all these airplanes, not Boeing. I don't care what Boeing thinks they can carry, if the FAA says that the plane can carry "X" number of passengers on the Type Certificate, then that's all it can carry. Period.
noramally i would agree, but boeing has no reason to lie in a press release when its simply about how the aircraft is being certified. Its not like they are comparing it against something from airbus which they might have a reason to try and play something in their favor. Something about certification is straight forward. It is what it is, it cant be changed. With everthing being public on the 787 and boeing posting about every little milestone, why was their no video on the 90 sec evac? because they never did one because they certified it using the 767 number's and certificate.

I would have given you the seating charts from all the airlines websites as well, but most are all tour operators which have multiple airlines and dont have specific sites for each airline. Spicejet was the only carrier that had the maps on their own site. This is also not a complete list as their are plenty of airlines that arent listed on seatguru.

For the 767-300
fly Thomas Cook- 333 seats (1 Class)
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Thomas ... ng_767.php
Monarch Airlines- 309 seats (2 class)
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Monarc ... 67-300.php

737-800's.

Air India Express- 189
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_In ... -800_B.php
ryanair- 189
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ryanai ... 37-800.php
SAS- 186
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SAS_Ai ... 37-800.php
Spice Jet- 189
http://www.spicejet.com/fleet.asp
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SpiceJ ... 37-800.php
tuifly- 189
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/TUIfly ... 37-800.php

EDIT: found the article. I was wrong, it wasnt a press release. It was a flight global article from an interview. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-345176/

and as for the -400ER, you are correct it is 409, which i appoligize for. Never did quite understand why the -400er only could carry 25 more than the -300 but it had the same length of a strech as the -300 did from the 200 which increased passenger count by a much higher number.

Edit II: while looking for more info, came upon this in a discussion about this very topic on a.net:
For the record, according the 767 Type certificate :

763 is certified for a maximum of 290 passengers with 3 pairs of Type A plus 1 pair of Type III exits,
or
763 is certified for a maximum of 351 passengers with 3 pairs of Type A plus 1 pair of Type I exits.
in the same thread, one posted who either is a 767 pilot or flies for Monarch and said their airline has 767-300's in 328 seat configs.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:31 am

Here is your proof for the 767-300! even includes the faa certificated max seating. This was origionally for one aircraft, but then applied to all applicable 767-300 a/c.

http://www.caa.co.uk/AANDocs/25972/25972000000.pdf
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:59 am

You're right, there is a CAA document allowing for the conversion of Britannia Airways aircraft to 351 passenger seats in compliance with the FAA Type Certificate (it even says in the CAA document that the FAA certificate is being revised as a result of the modification being granted Britannia). If you look at the excerpt from the A1NM that I posted, you'll see that note. However, G-OYBA is a 767-300ER and thus, complies with the 351 max seating that is in the database for the 767-300ER.

BTW, your statement about the FAA "not ruling the world" is kinda ignorant and not needed. The FAA is the certifying authority for ALL Boeing aircraft. There are quite a few memorandums, agreements, and treaties in effect that basically say an aviation authority can't exceed the certificate authority's limitations. As a result, an aircraft certified in Europe by EASA cannot be certified by the FAA in a way that allows it to do "more" than what EASA said it could. However, the FAA can restrict the certificate additional to the EASA certification or deny certification altogether. Same the other way for an aircraft originally certified by the FAA. So, if the FAA says the maximum seating is 200 for a given airplane, then EASA can either agree with that, say "no, it can only carry 180", or reject the certification. It can't go and tell operators it can carry 250. Not that something like that would happen anyway, because if you read the FARs and JARs, you'll find that they're nearly identical in all respects when it comes to certifying an aircraft type, including how they determine the maximum number of passengers a given airplane can carry, so there's no real reason that they would have differing maximum seating unless there was concerns by one authority about the maximum being too generous.

Take a look at the EASA Type Certificate for the 747 for example - A.196

As you read through it, note that all throughout that it states the "Certifying Authority" is the FAA. Additionally, in references the FAA Type Certificate (A20WE) all throughout as the basis for the certification by EASA. If you were to pull up A20WE, you'd see that everything matched exactly. The only major differences between the FAA and EASA certificates? All the EASA weights are in Kilograms versus the FAA's pounds, and the EASA certificate is a little more compact because it combines a lot of sections that are listed separately for each aircraft variant in the FAA certificate.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:53 am

CAPFlyer wrote:You're right, there is a CAA document allowing for the conversion of Britannia Airways aircraft to 351 passenger seats in compliance with the FAA Type Certificate (it even says in the CAA document that the FAA certificate is being revised as a result of the modification being granted Britannia). If you look at the excerpt from the A1NM that I posted, you'll see that note. However, G-OYBA is a 767-300ER and thus, complies with the 351 max seating that is in the database for the 767-300ER.
Didnt we used to have have the -300 in the database? Its no longer there. However if it were, per the CAA document above, it would be 351 as well as there are some non- er 67's that have the same door layout. Also this was in the early-mid 90's. Even prior to being changed to 351, it was already at 331, so that boeing technical document is probably out dated.

However. the 767-300ER DOES NOT carry 351 passengers on the website. It is only set at 290.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:26 am

No, the CAA document says 767-300ER aircraft are the only ones that can do 351 pax as they're the only ones the modification is approved for. While it identifies the aircraft as a "767-304", both Boeing's production list and several online sites identify the aircraft in question and all other aircraft of that company as 767-304ER.

The 767-300 (which I don't know why it's not in the database because it was before) can only carry 290 due to having the lesser door installation.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:24 am

CAPFlyer wrote:No, the CAA document says 767-300ER aircraft are the only ones that can do 351 pax as they're the only ones the modification is approved for. While it identifies the aircraft as a "767-304", both Boeing's production list and several online sites identify the aircraft in question and all other aircraft of that company as 767-304ER.

The 767-300 (which I don't know why it's not in the database because it was before) can only carry 290 due to having the lesser door installation.
No, both the -300 and -300ER come in both door configurations. It was an option for the airlines to choose.

-300ER (G-OBYA from CAA document) ( AAiA door setup)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Britanni ... 61544a57e9
-300 (Air Algerie) (AAiA door setup)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Alge ... a5bc581c35
-300ER (Delta Airlines)(AiiA door setup)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Ai ... 9cd0ba5fdf

per the bottom of the cAA document, it says (paraphrasing), that all applicable aircraft (door configs and mods) are thereby certified for the 351 max seating. This would include the -300 as long as it has the AAiA type door layout which some do.

However, thank you for changing the 767-300ER's seating.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:42 am

Actually, I thought I had already changed the -300ER seating, it was the -300 seating I wasn't going to change since it was an after-market mod, and everything I've found says that if it was applied, it was done to very few aircraft, so the 290-seat arrangement would be the "more correct" seating. It also gives a reason to buy the -300 or the -300ER since they then become somewhat different beside the change in ZFW and MTOW to allow more fuel carriage with a similar payload.

BTW, swapping out the doors isn't a minor issue. They don't have the same latching mechanisms, so you basically have to strip out the entire door frame, weld up the old rivet holes, then cut new ones and rivet in the new latching equipment. It's actually a major modification and is typically only done in Heavy Maintenance. So most airlines didn't make the changeover.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:21 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:Actually, I thought I had already changed the -300ER seating, it was the -300 seating I wasn't going to change since it was an after-market mod, and everything I've found says that if it was applied, it was done to very few aircraft, so the 290-seat arrangement would be the "more correct" seating. It also gives a reason to buy the -300 or the -300ER since they then become somewhat different beside the change in ZFW and MTOW to allow more fuel carriage with a similar payload.

BTW, swapping out the doors isn't a minor issue. They don't have the same latching mechanisms, so you basically have to strip out the entire door frame, weld up the old rivet holes, then cut new ones and rivet in the new latching equipment. It's actually a major modification and is typically only done in Heavy Maintenance. So most airlines didn't make the changeover.

Ok thats fine then for the -300, I even havent found any accounts of it having much more than 300 anyways and since we dont even have the -300 anymore...

As per the doors, I thought they were all done by Boeing at manufacture. The Air Algerie plane i posted was built in 1990 i believe, which was almost 5 years before the increase in capacity, so it would have had the doors already installed even before the TC was changed.

The doors are completely "new" on the AAiA config. The AiiA is just the main forward door, two overwing exits and the rear door. The AAiA is Main entry door, second full size door in front of the wing, a small door aft of the wing and another full door in the rear. I doubt even if they could even be changed in a D check.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:54 am

flightsimer wrote:As per the doors, I thought they were all done by Boeing at manufacture. The Air Algerie plane i posted was built in 1990 i believe, which was almost 5 years before the increase in capacity, so it would have had the doors already installed even before the TC was changed.

The doors are completely "new" on the AAiA config. The AiiA is just the main forward door, two overwing exits and the rear door. The AAiA is Main entry door, second full size door in front of the wing, a small door aft of the wing and another full door in the rear. I doubt even if they could even be changed in a D check.
As far as I'm aware, all the 767-300ER's were built with the framing for any of the door configurations, so changing the doors isn't as involved as you might think. However, the AAiA setup isn't the only thing. There are several types of "A" door, and you must use the version specified to get the 351 passenger capacity. If you use a different door (as indicated in the Type Certificate and the CAA document), you are still restricted to the 290 or even lower.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by ygor_ma » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:07 pm

Hey guys!

I would like to know, if with the seat config, we will be able to apply different ticket prices for different classes..
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by Konny » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:10 pm

Yes, you will be able to do that, but we will still give you the possibility to just say "standard price +/- x%" for all classes.
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