Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

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Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by Lenair CEO » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:05 pm

Hi

First of all, I would like to thank all the people of FSA, for making such a good product. I'm FSA using it since 2008 or so and I think, that is still a great product. Since the first day of using it, my biggest wish was, to configure the seats capacitiy as in the real airplanes of the airlines. For example a 737-700, max PAX 148. Since a few hours now, it is more or less possible. Why more ore less? Because for a 737-700, you cann still have max 126 PAX. You can only choose max 85 Eco, 14 Business and 3 First. To be honest, it doesn't make any sense... I and other people tought that with the idea of "Fare classes" it meant that the VA can choose the max amount of PAX possible on that type of airplane, not that you still have 126 (in the case of the 737-700) an choose within that.

I appologize for My english and it doesn't mean, that I don't appreciate or that I wanna "attack" someone...
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by Konny » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:26 pm

Hi Devis,

I'm sorry that you're disappointed but maybe it just a misunderstanding. This was a first step in the progress of adding fare classes. When we release the next Client (which will support the configurations) we will calculate with the max pax capacity (149 for the B737-700) and not the typical configuration as at the moment.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:47 pm

You have to remember that to change to this new seating confirguation, *ALL* aircraft in the database will have to be updated to reflect the maximum seating available for the airplane instead of the typical configuration that's now there. As such, until it all gets updated, the max seats will remain as they are now.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:56 pm

Just as an FYI, I have updated all Airbus, Boeing, and Douglas/McDonnell Douglas information for maximum seating capacity and a quick review of the other major Western manufacturers shows that the data for those aircraft is already correct. If someone wants to go through the Russian designers, it'd be appreciated.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by Lenair CEO » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:02 pm

This is great! Thank you!
Saluti, Grüsse, greetings, cordialement
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by VegasTim » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:15 am

The config will not allow correct seating for Embraer ERJ145 (American Eagle). It has the correct pax number, but seats are not 2 X 2. Rather 1 on left, 2 on right.
I have flown in this aircraft numerous times and it is my favorite with more leg room than MD-80 or 737.

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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:34 am

At this time, it shows all aircraft as 2x2 as far as I'm aware. The graphic is mainly just to give you an "idea" of how the seats are split up. I've tested several aircraft seat configurations on the database, and so far I can match the number of real world First Class, Business, and/or Economy seats exactly, so the calculations that determine how much room each row takes up is correct even if the graphic isn't.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by VegasTim » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:48 am

Ah, no worries then. I was just giving feedback as there probably aren't many ERJ's out there compared to everything else.

I think the whole concept is cool and like anything new, it will have people who like it and those who don't. I urge everyone to keep an open mind and visualize the future possibilities! Like establishing an executive branch in your fleet with first class/business seats only ..... :D
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:53 am

Well, besides the ERJ-140/170, the EMB-120 and the Saab 340 & 2000 also have 1x2 seating. I believe there are some older models that had it as well, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:26 pm

Two things here. First i want to request a tool that i can apply the changes to all the aircraft of that type. I have over 700 mainline sized aircraft in my fleets, i cant possibly edit them all myself. An "apply config to all" button would work fine.

Second. Cap, i was looking at some of the aircraft seating. Some boeings are off.

The max certified seating on the 767-300/er is 350, not 290. The max on the -400ER is 375, not 409. Also the 787-8 and -9 use these same figures respectively since the 787 family's max seating was piggy backed on the 787 type certificate. Right now the 787-8 is set at 440 and 270 for the -9. The 737-800 is wrong as well, it should be 189, not 184. Those were the only ones that really stood out to me.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:34 pm

I'm using the FAA's maximum exit limits as declared on the Type Certificates for the all the Boeing aircraft, so they're right. Don't know what you're using, but they got bad data. I didn't change the 787-9 since it still doesn't exist and isn't included on the Type Certificate at all.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by flightsimer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:27 am

CAPFlyer wrote:I'm using the FAA's maximum exit limits as declared on the Type Certificates for the all the Boeing aircraft, so they're right. Don't know what you're using, but they got bad data. I didn't change the 787-9 since it still doesn't exist and isn't included on the Type Certificate at all.
Hate to break it to you, but your info is wrong. I dont think Boeing, who made the aircraft themselves and know perfectly well of what they are capable of loading, has bad data. And i dont think they are stupid enough to be deliivering 100's of aircraft that are not built to certification.

I can name three airlines off the top of my head right now that have 189 seats in the 737-800 (Ryan Air, Tui group, Air India Express), so i dont care what the FAA says it can hold. Whatever you are looking at, is wrong.

As for the 767 and 787, im using direct Boeing press releases which i will not be looking for as they are about 2-3 years old now. They would not advertise them as being able to hold 350/375 seats if they couldnt. But since they are wrong, then explain how Fly Thomas Cook flys 767-300's with 333 seats installed if the max is only 290?

And since you went the road of using exits as your excuse. Then why is the 787 set at 440 seats and the 767 at 290 when they BOTH HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF EXITS. Plus the doors are the exact same size between the two. They did this for a reason.

As i previously state, Boeing did not have to do a max seating test because they used the 767 certification for the 787's. They were able to do this because of same doors being used and the spacing being almost the same.

And the same thing is true for the 737-800/900. The only reason why the -900 is limited to 189 seats is because it has the same number of exits as the -800. Which is why with the -900ER there is the option of the two aft doors which allow the seating to go up to 215 seats.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:54 am

flightsimer wrote:
CAPFlyer wrote:I'm using the FAA's maximum exit limits as declared on the Type Certificates for the all the Boeing aircraft, so they're right. Don't know what you're using, but they got bad data. I didn't change the 787-9 since it still doesn't exist and isn't included on the Type Certificate at all.
And since you went the road of using exits as your excuse. Then why is the 787 set at 440 seats and the 767 at 290 when they BOTH HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF EXITS. Plus the doors are the exact same size between the two. They did this for a reason.
Umm, talk to the FAA and ask them. The FAA certification requirement is that the aircraft be able to empty out in 90 seconds. They limit the number of seats based on that. That's why the 737-900 is restricted as you say. I'm just going off what the type certificate sheets show.

BTW, Boeing doesn't give max seating information on some of their aircraft in any of their documents, only "typical seating" arrangements, this includes the 787-8. However, if you look through their Detailed Technical Specifications on the 737, you'll find that every one of them says "FAA Exit Limit" next to the maximum capacity.

Here's the source for the 737 for example -

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpor ... 37sec2.pdf

Page 23 shows 184 on all configurations for the 737-800. Go to page 25. It states "186 WITH MID EXIT DOOR, 215: FAA EXIT LIMIT" for the 737-900ER. I'm taking Boeing at their word as you say in knowing what they're talking about.

BTW, what they say in a press release is worthless. They're PRESS RELEASES, they're put out there to make Boeing look good and nothing more. You show me technical documentation that shows my data is wrong and I'll look at it. But the FAA is the certification authority for all these airplanes, not Boeing. I don't care what Boeing thinks they can carry, if the FAA says that the plane can carry "X" number of passengers on the Type Certificate, then that's all it can carry. Period.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:01 am

Oh, and here's from the FAA Type Certificate for the 767 - A1NM
Maximum Passengers: 255 (767-200) with 2 pairs of Type A plus 1 pair of Type III exits.
290 (767-200/300) with 2 pairs of Type A plus 2 pairs of Type III exits.
290 (767-300) with 3 pairs of Type A plus 1 pair of Type III exits. (See Note 6 for Type III Exit
requirements.)
351 (767-300) with 3 pairs of Type A plus 1 pair of Type I exits.
0 passengers (767-300F) 2 crew, 4 persons with one floor level exit equipped with inertia reels
and right hand flight crew exit operable from outside. (Exemption No. 5993A)
375 for 767-400ER
Now, how do I know which is which? Well, the first configuration was on 90% of the 767-200's delivered. Some were modified later and thus made it 290. How do I know which 767-300's have the 4th configuration to allow 351? I don't. It wasn't an original option on the 767-300, but it was on the 767-300ER. But it does show I was wrong on the 767-400. It can only legally carry 375 despite Boeing claiming 409.
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Re: Seat Config tool... released and I'm disapointed

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:07 am

Oh and one more thing, it's not the aft doors that make the 737-900ER capable of carrying 215, it's the Mid-Cabin Emergency Doors.
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