Landing lights penalty

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KVAZEMODO
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Landing lights penalty

Post by KVAZEMODO » Mon May 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Hello everybody!!! I think to give a penalty for extended landing lights below 1000ft is wrong, because in real life in bad visibility it can lead to crach during landing, because you can`t observe a RW during snowstorm for example, and i know a crew extend taxi instead of landing lights. I think a staff should exclude a penalty for extanding lights below 1000ft from FSarlines client.. THank YOU!!!
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon May 23, 2011 4:07 pm

I'm sorry, but if you know that someone is not using their landing lights during landing, then you need to report them, especially if they're doing it to be able to "see the runway" in bad visibility. This means they're knowingly attempting to land in conditions that are worse than the airport is capable than handling and that causes crashes. ICAO and local aviation regulations are clear that landing lights must be working and utilized when operating a flight for hire. It's both for you to see and for you to be seen by other aircraft. Runway lighting is designed that even in a snowstorm it can be seen. You don't need to see the runway, just the runway lights to land safely. Once you're on the ground, you can then switch to taxi lights. If you can't see the lights, then you haven't met the requirements to land and thus must go around and find another airport with sufficient visibility. Failure to do this is what causes more accidents than anything else in the world. The Polish Prime Minister lost his life just a few short years ago because of this and sadly, your part of the world has the worst accident rate for poor-visibility accidents of the entire world, and a lot of it is because your crews don't follow the rules. Until citizens and pilots start demanding that the rules be followed and dangerous practices like you suggest be stopped, then the accident rate won't improve and more people will die.

I hate to be blunt on this, but it's an unfortunate reality.
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KVAZEMODO
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by KVAZEMODO » Tue May 24, 2011 1:29 am

I mean RW lights of course, and the RW lights sometime can reduce range of visibilty in bad weather conditions, and I know many crews in real life which used taxi lights instead of RW lights on final to observe RW light`s, because it can lead to whitewall effect. Try to use Headlight of headlights in your car during +showerrain(+SHRA) in the night, effect will be the same. And I don`t think so that somebody needs to see your landing lights below 1000 feet :D in bad visibility, especially on final. And about our crews... You don`t know many details about real reasons of crashes . Our crews are the best in the world :D , but the main reason of crashes in poor visibility are heads of our aircompanies, which have only money in his eyes. And sometime crews forced to avoid the rules, because they may be dismissed.
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by CAPFlyer » Tue May 24, 2011 4:21 am

I'm sorry, but you have the wrong impression of what I'm talking about. Runway lights line the sides of the runway and are fixed to the ground. These lights are the ones which are required to be seen before landing. Your landing lights won't prevent you from seeing them. I've landed in heavy snow and had the landing lights on and while it did create a "white out" effect, I could still see the runway lights just fine because the visibility was better than the minimums for that approach. If I hadn't been able to see the runway lights, I wouldn't have landed because I would have violated the requirements for landing.

As for your claim on the crews - if they were the "best", then they'd do their job. ICAO, FAA, CAA, JAA, and Russian Air Ministry rules clearly state that the Pilot in Command is the final say on the safety of the aircraft. He is also responsible for ensuring that all appropriate regulations are followed. If they bend to the pressures of the heads of the companies, then the PIC is at fault, not the head of the company. Safety is something you take in your own hands. If you compromise it, the only fault is your own, not someone else's. I'm sorry, but I, and every other good pilot out there, would rather be fired than compromise the safety of me and the passengers I'm responsible for the safety of. In fact, all good pilots wouldn't let it get to that and would either quit or report the airline to the regulators to be dealt with. I know that Russia may not have the same "Whistleblower" protections that other countries do, but personally, I don't care what the laws are - I'm not going to compromise my safety for someone else's bottom line.
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KVAZEMODO
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by KVAZEMODO » Tue May 24, 2011 10:32 am

Something from rules about operation of An-12 (Antonov -12), it`s a real document.
FEATURES OF FLIGHT AT NIGHT
By preparation for night flight as well as before the day flight, it is necessary for all crewmen to execute in full preflight survey of the plane. Besides, to check up the lighting equipment of the plane.
1. After landing in a cabin to check up light exposure of control panels and control panels.
Before start of engines to include flashing beacons and aeronavigation equipment and to check up their work. To leave flashing beacons included, remembering that they join in the afternoon.
To check up working capacity of landing headlights. After headlight check to disconnect and clean. To check up work of plafonds подсвета engines and a manual projector of ATN-45.
bla bla bla
3. Take off, as a rule, is carried out with the extended landing headlights.
4. After take off the flight engineer at the command of first officer at height not less 50m (~1500ft) switch off and retract landing lights.
bla bla
7. Landing lights while approach should be switched on at height 150-100м (~4500-3000ft) , and in the conditions of the limited visibility (a fog, a smoke, precipitations) landing lights should be switched on at the discretion of first officer.
First officer switch on the Landing lights after when established visual contact with ground.
If after switched on the landing headlights the light screen is created, lights are immediately switched off.
http://www.rpp.kiev.ua/rpp/rpp-ch-b-an- ... procedury/

One more of the reason to exclude a penalty for extanding lights below 1000ft from FSarlines client, while approach in bad weather))))
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by KVAZEMODO » Tue May 24, 2011 11:35 am

I`m sorry.
Just told about that with real pilot, which fly on A320. While approach using ONLY mode taxi. and it is not depends from weather conditions.
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by CAPFlyer » Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

I'm sorry, but this is counter to international standards and regulations. We will not deviate from these, even if some airlines feel it's okay to do so.
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KVAZEMODO
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by KVAZEMODO » Tue May 24, 2011 2:54 pm

OK, probably you are right, but could you give me a link, where can i find this international rules and standarts or ICAO recommendations or some informations from aircraft documents, according with i must to switch on the LANDING lights while approach in bad weather conditions, to exclude another questions. Thank YOU!
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by CAPFlyer » Tue May 24, 2011 8:12 pm

Unfortunately, the ICAO took their Flight Regulations and many of their Safety Circulars offline about 2 years ago when much of the EU did the same. As I don't work for an active Airline anymore, I don't have access to the printed copies. I will have to find the FAA circulars that covers the use of landing lights in poor conditions, but the FAA approach regulations say that the runway lights, approach lights, or runway must be visible by the minimums to execute the landing (not all 3), thus aircraft lights aren't the major concern.
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Re: Landing lights penalty

Post by MiguelMoreno » Wed May 25, 2011 1:00 am

About that penalty, i was thinking about that. Addons like FS2crew give you the option to talk with FO and switch off Landing Lights over FL100 (between FL100 and FL110).

could you change the system for penalizing past for example 10,500 feet and not just 10.000?

because all known fsx addons (like the fs passenger too) lights off at FL100 and not before.

Regards.

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