Aircraft Transfers

[Cat]

Just a random thought - why don't aircraft transfers put any time or wear on the aircraft? We are paying someone to "fly" to our desired destination but it always arrives in pristine condition (the same it was when it left the destination).

[fackprod]

We only use top notch 'carriers' and we do pay a fee!

[joefremont]

Sounds reasonable, would not be hard to do. I suppose pilots who do transfers are more maverick than line airline pilots, and those who do instant transfers even more so

[Cat]

Just for kicks I am solo ferrying a Quest Kodiak II Float plane from S. Greece to Michigan USA just to see with 0 pax and 0 cargo the whole way (as we would not have Euro credentials to haul for profit, this would be US FAA part 91 ferry flight). I want to see how much such a flight actually costs the VA vs standard transfer fee. The number to beat (standard transfer) is $10,487.

Taking the bunny hop tour up through Europe after canyon running the Alps to UK, Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland, Nova Scotia, Canada, USA.

LOL and NO Joe, I am not doing "one flight" with 12 tech stops! LOL each leg is its own charter flight. I will probably take out the square corner from Greenland and fly direct over the Labrador Sea, the plane has plenty of range empty.

[Cat]

So far, after landing tonight at Faroe Islands (halfway between Norway and Iceland), we've spent $5544 so it looks like the standard transfer fee is the cheapest way to go. I doubt I will be below the original standard transfer fee when we arrive in Michigan. I'm guessing we will come in around $12,000 or so.

I think it's the added expense of landing fee's and pilot pay that are making flying the plane more expensive than a direct transfer that goes "non stop" even when the aircraft cannot do that distance. Thus far of that total $5544 "loss", $375 is in landing fee's and $474 in pilot pay ($30 an hour). Fuel costs to this point (aircraft started with 0 fuel) = $4695.

If the pilot was paid on a percentage of flight revenue, it would be zero but who would ferry a plane halfway across the world for free? Not me. LOL

Of course this is assuming we are ferrying it in a realistic manner without any revenue coming in at all. The aircraft does have a longer range than my flight legs so I could extend those out and save some landing fee's but about 2.5 hours or so is my limit and I don't want to repeat a super long flight if I have a flight sim or internet issue.

This is all just FYI for anyone who cares (prolly nobody) from someone bored with winter in Michigan and looking for something new to do. LOL

[joefremont]

Hi Sam,
interesting experiment. The current formula for transfer costs is basically estimated fuel cost plus pilot hours at 100v$ per hour. But it assumes a non stop direct flight. Of course your route is not a straight line and your making 12 stops. I suppose I could add something for estimating number of stops, but actually figuring out which airports to stop at would be difficult. It will be interesting to see how your numbers compare to the formulas.

[Cat]

"The Great Northern Circle Route" is actually shorter than GPS direct as the Earth is more narrow the further north& south of the Equator you go. It looks further on a flat map but looks are deceiving. LOL

[Cat]

If one puts in GPS direct in fsxmap.com, this is what you get. But the Kodiak does not have the range to cross that vast expanse of Atlantic ocean so we have to go further north and island hop it.



I am betting when it's all said and done, the numbers will be relatively close to each other -- if we go over 2000, that's only 20% and we are making far more stops along the way. It's something I've never tried (flying vs transfer to compare actual cost) so I figured hey give it a go and see where the numbers fall.

[Cat]

I have actually modified the 2nd half of my journey, extending the legs out into the 600-700nm range instead of 350-400 and in doing so was able to come up with a much better result as far as the "route curve" goes. I am only picking airports where Jet A fuel is available per fsxmap.com, smaller strips might be better route wise, but if no services, then no good. We should end up in Goose Bay tonight and then it's just 2 legs to home base for this airplane from there. SIDE NOTE FUN FACT: hours shown with my new pilot account shows 20.00 hours in last 28 days, 16.5 flight hours total and 19.06 standard & adjusted hours. Flying at 1x speed at 155-160 kt (indicated) cruise speed. Riding some nice tail winds tho. Active Sky Next real world weather for FSX-SE.

[Cat]

Well this is interesting ..... My "free account" pilot was running out of hours of service so I used my platinum to buy a ticket to the airplane and put the free pilot in the jump seat and the flight received 1 economy ticket income. The airplane does not have any economy seats either, 9 all biz class.

I didn't want the "free pilot" logging any more hours as a co-pilot and busting the hours of service as at the time she was at 9.8 in the last 10 hours.
Yet the free pilot account was not charged for the ticket.

This is the first time I have experimented with co-sharing a flight so is this a normal thing?
I wonder what happens if I flip it now and put the platinum pilot in the jump seat, as platinum accounts are not charged for tickets at all.

This gets even more strange - if you manually add up the finances in the report shown, the income shown from the "jump seat" passenger does not compute in the total flight revenue. So I guess it's a "comp ticket" in order to show the extra person's weight on the airplane?

"to be continued"..........

[Cat]

THE RESULTS ARE IN ...........



SUMMARY: A standard transfer is faster overall than flying the airplane and is less expensive, however this was a small sample size with a relatively small airplane crossing an ocean, unable to "fly direct".

At 61.5 hours for a standard transfer, it appears the formula allows for pilot rest periods. Flying the airplane took 5 days of "casual flying" and I had to bring in a relief pilot near the end as the primary pilot was running out of flight hours (10 max in any 24 hour period).

It was a fun experiment for sure. I learned some new things like jump seats have "comp economy tickets" that post to account for the person's weight but do not calculate in the flight revenue's bottom line. All flights were booked as a charter flight with 0 pax 0 cargo 0 packages. A pure ferry trip with no intention of generating any income as my US charter VA is imagined to be not licensed for charter operations outside USA/Canada.

Also note the aircraft started with 0 fuel and arrived with 408 lbs remaining so that's $264.75 of "expense" that really shouldn't count as that fuel will be used on the first revenue flight. So if we take that amount off the difference, we are only over the transfer cost by about $1500. And we had one fun adventure making it well worth it (for me anyway).

[joefremont]

Hi Sam, Great work, very interesting. That the cost of your 12 stop route was only 20% more expensive than the ideal values is not too bad. I probably could build some factor in for number of stops required for shorter range aircraft but given how close it is it may not be needed. If someone really wants to save money they could always setup 'training' routes and then the ac gets moved an there is no cost (maybe we should fix that).

As far as the 'jump seat' not costing anything, I did that on purpose, I figured if the airline wanted to move an employee on a flight they would not charge them, even if it meant that a passenger seat would not be available for sale..

In the time calculation I basically did a rough time estimate and then doubled it, assuming the pilots doing the transfer would need some time to get to the starting point.

So do you think the transfer system is too cheap?

[Cat]

Nope. Spot on in my book. Well done sir, I bet this is the first time anyone has tried to match it with actual flight time/expenses. I could have gone cheaper paying the pilots 0 with a flight revenue % but that's not realistic either. Primary pilot got $30 an hour and when "the boss" had to come help, that cost $40 an hour. LOL.

[Cat]

This is also the reason I have two platinum accounts and a "free pilot" account. So I have "staff" to do beta testing and things like this without affecting my primary VA, Fly Vegas. My "test VA" is Mid Michigan Air Charters, loosely based on air taxi and regional operations that are very typical in my home state.

FYI regarding the training flight thing to move aircraft for free, if operators are that cheap, they are just "gamers" anyway and their joy is probably trying to find ways to exploit every rule made. I wouldn't waste my time on them trying to fix training flights. All the cheaters cheat in the long run is themselves. I still don't get it. LOL

[Cat]

Actually upon further review, I might suggest a transfer fee price increase of about 25% to A) give the operators of the transfer company a profit as they are pretty much doing it for "cost", B) give VA operators a choice of flying the aircraft themselves to save money. Although with most flying at 25x mulltiplier or more, the actual cost of the transfer is crushed peanuts. I doubt anyone will ferry an airplane with 0 pax, 0 cargo just for the sake of realism.