Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

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Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:28 pm

In the real world when airlines buy aircraft in numbers, they do not pay "list price" for them. Have you ever considered something like this in the "Manufacturer" only list whereby an airline can get say 10-30% off for buying more than 1 airplane at a time? 10% off on the 2nd one, 15% off on a third and 30% off on 4 or more aircraft of the same type purchased in one transaction is just an idea .... This of course would only favor the larger virtual airlines, but that's how business works in the real world too. It may be more hassle than worth, just a wild idea over morning coffee. 8)

This would not change anything at all in either the used aircraft market "Trader List" or in the "Out of Production" list whereby old airplanes have to be found and restored to flying condition.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by joefremont » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:49 pm

Hi Sam,

the only issue I have with this idea is that currently the standard used price is 90% of the MSRP, so if someone could buy 4 at 70% and then turn right around and sell them on the used market for profit it might distort things. Maybe the way to make this work is you pay the list price if you buy 10 or more. Say we add some sort of 'transaction fee' equal to say 25-50% of the cost of a single aircraft if you buy 1-9 aircraft, this fee is waved if you buy more.

So if the fee was 50% and you buy a 10,000,000 aircraft the prices for each would be:
one: 15,000,000,
two: 12,500,000
four 11,250,000.

With 25% the per aircraft cost would be:
one: 12.500,000
two: 11,250,000
four: 10,750,000

The discussions on seat costs got me thinking, when ever an airline buys an aircraft the first thing they are going to do is repaint it into there colors, this is not cheap and maybe along with costs of reconfiguring the seats there should be a repainting fee associated with it.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by BVU-951 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:51 pm

Many airlines do not really own the aircraft they fly. Like a lot of people do for cars, they lease them, from aircraft leasing firms. Four out of 10 commercial aircraft worldwide are on lease.

Also, and unlike cars, you’re not going to take home your new jet on the day you sign the contract. Or even the decade:

But it's an interesting thought, our airline could make a fortune by buying 5 at a time and selling them to others, unused at a cheap rate

With this in mind there would have to be some sort of time factor before you get your 2nd 3rd or 4th aircraft.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:13 pm

Yeah, I did not take into consideration the "market players" / gamers who would manipulate a bulk bonus into resales profits.... It's a part of the virtual world here, like it or not. So scratch this idea, more hassle than worth.

As to the seating proposal: (not this thread's topic, sorry)
Regarding the cost to configure, as we are all paying "list" price, I would think that would be included to add livery. Changing the seating layout to anything but "default / standard" should probably require a fee and that would keep pilots from flipping 738's into freighters when they find a lot of cargo. Requiring any additional "seat configurations" to be "stored" at the minimum of a small warehouse would be a deterrent as well. They would have to fly back to the location where the seats are stored to change the aircraft to another configuration. That should probably be a half day operation at the minimum WITH THE EXCEPTION of quick change aircraft such as Cessna 208's, Quest Kodiaks, 737-700C (Combi), PC12. These types are all designed to have their standard seats pulled in quick fashion to convert to more cargo hauling as the mission dictates. A "luxury executive interior" added to any aircraft cannot be done in a day and is far more costly than just changing around "standard" seats.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:16 pm

Many airlines do not really own the aircraft they fly. Like a lot of people do for cars, they lease them, from aircraft leasing firms. Four out of 10 commercial aircraft worldwide are on lease.

Also, and unlike cars, you’re not going to take home your new jet on the day you sign the contract. Or even the decade:
The model with FSAirlines does not promote leasing as a truly wise financial decision unless the airline is just starting out with no cash. And airlines can build cash so quickly, it does not make financial sense to long term lease aircraft when they can purchase outright, fly them for awhile and then resell them on the market and show a "lifetime profit" for that aircraft whereas with a lease, you will never recover the money spent on lease payments.

Real world airlines lease aircraft as that is the most financially viable option for them. They don't make millions per flight like airlines in FSA do.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by joefremont » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:19 pm

I have thought for some time that the way we sell new and used aircraft was a bit backwards. With used aircraft its more like it should be, if it's on the market you can buy it now, but it's probably at some storage airport in the desert and you have to go get it or pay to have it transferred. If you want an out of production aircraft that is not available you place an order, it takes the 'agents' some period of time to find it and when they do you can then purchase it.

But with new aircraft in the real world airlines place an order with the manufacturer and it takes years to deliver and when it does you go to the factory to pick it up. But in FSA you get it instantly and you get it at any airport you want with no extra charge. On one had it bugs me because its not realistic but at the same time, for new users to FSA the last thing I would would want is, great you just signed up and purchased an aircraft, come back next month and you can start using the platform.

There probably should be some sort of 'transaction fee' when purchasing aircraft that covers the legal costs and repainting of the AC, maybe 5% for each used aircraft and 20% of one new aircraft for the entire order. This would also help stop those airlines who buy and sell to each other as a way to transfer money. The idea appeals to me but I am not saying yet we are going to do it.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:06 pm

I would be OK with a "factory delivery acceptance" and then one would have to pay to have it transferred or go get it. (new aircraft from the Manufacturer's List). I would not want to see new airline operators have to wait for new aircraft deliveries, that would most certainly drive them away from the FSAirlines platform.

I would also be OK with at least a 90 day "hold" on any aircraft an airline has sold, they could not buy it back for at least 90 days. This however could be problematic with those (like us in the past) who have sold an aircraft only to then acquire a new pilot who wants to fly the very aircraft we just sold to FSAirlines and it happens to be the only one of that type on the Trader List and unavailable on the Manufacturer List.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:12 pm

Some research would have to be done for all the manufacturer's to find their "final assembly lines" where the aircraft are certified and ready for customer acceptance. This is Airbus:

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If this idea appeals to you Joe, I can start up a Google Spreadsheet and begin research on all final assembly plants for the manufacturers' listed in FSA.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by joefremont » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:41 pm

Not a bad idea, and if others are willing to do the legwork then I think its a great idea.

Here is the link to the basic sheet I created.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Sam I already sent you an invite so you can edit it. If anyone else wants to take part, send me a PM or support ticket with your email and I will send it to you. Not sure if non google emails will work.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:48 am

thanks, I'll get on it with weather going to winter, it gives me something to do.. LOL

Some aircraft there is no mention of exact factory location, just "country of origin" so I am putting that into notes.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:23 pm

I'm almost halfway done .... when able please take a peek and see if this is the data you need. Some places will be a "best guess" and I left them blank.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by joefremont » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:24 pm

Cat wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:23 pm
I'm almost halfway done .... when able please take a peek and see if this is the data you need. Some places will be a "best guess" and I left them blank.
Hi Sam, this is looking very good. We should figure out, when there is more than one production facility how do we handle that, would the purchaser get a choice of where to pick it up? I also think that for many of these where we can't find the exact airport we just need to pick one that is plausible.

For those you made comments on:
  • Apex Aircraft CAP10C - Set to out of production
  • Beech Royal Turbine Duke - Set to out of production, it's a conversion so its possible someone could do another conversion at any time but we now have a conversion system so we can setup that if there is a need.
  • Bombardier CL-415 - Are normal rules for aircraft is if a commercial user has operated it, its allowed, this aircraft does meet that test and someone asked for it. What puzzles me more is that they can be configured as utility transport with 35.6 m3 of cabin volume and a "Cabin floor qualified for cargo loading for true multi-purpose applications", but I also see its now listed as out of production and see many references to the Viking Canadair 515, its replacement, not sure that AC has been delivered yet, I see articles from last year saying there are orders. I will be updating the CL-415 soon to give it a cargo capacity and mark it as out of production
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:23 am

Joe wrote: Hi Sam, this is looking very good. We should figure out, when there is more than one production facility how do we handle that, would the purchaser get a choice of where to pick it up? I also think that for many of these where we can't find the exact airport we just need to pick one that is plausible.
Using Manufacturer HQ's wont work as many of them are nowhere near the actual final assembly lines / customer delivery locations.

With the BBJ and other large airliners turned biz jets, maybe just pick them up at the final assembly line(s). In the case of the majors, like Airbus, having pickup points in multiple continents is a big plus. They added the Mobile AL USA facility just to avoid US tariffs on "imported goods". They can put "made in America" on them even though all the parts are made in the same places as the ones built elsewhere.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:28 am

Another way to do this might be to just "think outside the box" and open "FSA aircraft sales offices" in each region and that's where they spawn. If you don't want to fly them from where they spawn in, you can pay the transfer fee.

I do think the realism of having to go fetch your new bird from the factory would be a plus, much like having to go to the boneyard where the out of production aircraft spawned in. So instead of trying to go full on realistic, where there are multiple facilities, maybe just trim that down or split models of one manufacturer between the multiple facilities. Like Boeing in S. Carolina is where you would pick up your shiny new 787's and Boeing Field (Seattle) is where you would pick up all the others.
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Re: Aircraft Bulk Buy Discounts

Post by Cat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:11 am

225 lines of 298 completed. Should have it done in the next couple of days.
Some places I am making "best guess" due to lack of information. 8)
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