Military planes price mess up and cheating method discovered

[JJacobs]

Well every Military aircraft except C-5 is WAY under price. A-10 for 13 mill! I havent looked it up but I doubt that. Also time compression lowers catering prices! You need to use a combination of real world UTC time and sim UTC time.

[cmdrnmartin]

I didnt think catering would be affected, but Konny will look at it.

I'll let the Warthog stand for now, it caries no cargo, and no passengers, so its not a way people could cheat anyways... And 13 million seems fair, maybe a bit overpriced actually.

The ones I would be concerned about our the:

An-124
C-5
A-310-304ETF
C-17
IL-76
C-130

To me most of the prices for them look fair. However if you, or anyone else whishes to edit their price, youcan under the "Aircraft Types" section.

[JJacobs]

what about KC-10? I'll edit it
Konny: Please replace the DC-10 in my fleet with a KC-10, thanks

[Konny]

JJacobs: Sell your DC-10 and buy a KC-10, this way you can replace it yourself

[CAPFlyer]

Also, why do you want a KC-10 instead of a DC-10? Can't carry revenue paying passengers in a KC-10.

[CAPFlyer]

The ones I would be concerned about our the:

An-124
C-5
A-310-304ETF
C-17
IL-76
C-130

Military aircraft are cheap when compared to their civilian counterparts. Remember that the military has a different funding system. They fund the prototypes, then they fund the production aircraft. So, in many cases, the prices that you have available are for the production aircraft, which cost much less than a comparible civilian because the manufacturer doesn't need to roll the testing and certification costs into the aircraft's price. Not only that, but the aircraft listed are cargo-only, so you don't require all of the "life support" systems that a civilian aircraft requires. When these aircraft carry passengers, it's non-revenue, so they don't have to comply with all of the same requirements there either. Most just have web seats and are VERY uncomfortable.

[BigQ]

"Cadet Air Patrol"... has to be military versions...

[JJacobs]

BigQ is on the money! But I don't think anyone will buy a used DC-10 at market value. I will sell it 10 million under market value and deliver it free! Also KC-10's have longer range.

[cmdrnmartin]

The ones I would be concerned about our the:

An-124
C-5
A-310-304ETF
C-17
IL-76
C-130

Military aircraft are cheap when compared to their civilian counterparts. Remember that the military has a different funding system. They fund the prototypes, then they fund the production aircraft. So, in many cases, the prices that you have available are for the production aircraft, which cost much less than a comparible civilian because the manufacturer doesn't need to roll the testing and certification costs into the aircraft's price. Not only that, but the aircraft listed are cargo-only, so you don't require all of the "life support" systems that a civilian aircraft requires. When these aircraft carry passengers, it's non-revenue, so they don't have to comply with all of the same requirements there either. Most just have web seats and are VERY uncomfortable.

Yes, but for the sake of argument:

Military aircraft have more equipment (I doubt your average 747 has flare launchers and IR jammers) as well as having I would say more robust life support systems.
As well, my comment was related more to the balance of FLYnet than anything else. As military cargo haulers carry signifigantly heavy tonnages, if they were reduced to less $ than their civilian counterparts, there'd be a balance issue. Thus for the 10~20% increase in load capacity, theres a 10~20% increase in price. fair by anyone's standards.

[CAPFlyer]

Whomever submitted the A-10 price adjustment to $98 Million - If you do it again I'll hunt you down. I'm serious.

If you do not know how much a plane costs, don't submit an edit just because you don't think it's fair.

"Cadet Air Patrol" Cessnas cost just as much as a civilian Cessna. They are civilian. If anything, the real CAP's Cessnas cost more than a civilian one becuase we add on additional equipment that's not available on civilian aircraft.

Also, purchasing a KC-10 because it has more range is very dishonest. Military Equipment is for Military use. Not so you can get a leg up on everyone else. Maybe if people are going to start doing that and using aircraft not available to civilians (the C-130, AN-124, and IL-76 are commercially available while the C-5, C-17, C-141, and KC-10 are not), then maybe we should not allow military aircraft to be on the system. We're expecting people to use the honor system here. If that can't be done, then maybe Konny needs to set more rules or we database admins need to just remove the planes and remove the problem.

Justin -

1) Flares and self-defense systems are GFE (government furnished equipment) and are not part of the cost of building the aircraft. Many aircraft are delivered simply with holes in them where that system goes and the system is installed by the military when it hits the depot maintenance facility (where all aircraft go before being sent to their assigned base).

2) Life Support systems are off-the-shelf. There's nothing more on a military aircraft than you'd find on a civilian one. In fact, in the case of the AN-124 and IL-76, the cargo area is unpressurized, so there are fewer life support systems as you don't need to move as much air. In aircraft like fighters and bombers, many have only 1 air cycle machine to work the pressurization and air conditioning system. This is less than even a Gulfstream (which has 2). Where the DC-10 has 3 A/C packs, the KC-10 only has 2.


Let me give you some "real world" figures. Cost is the Fly-Away cost in millions. Source: http://www.gruntsmilitary.com

F-16 - $18.8M
A-10 - $9.8M
F-15 - $29.8M
F-15E - $31.1M
B-1B - $283M
C-5B - $179M
C-130J - $48.5M
C-130H - $30.1M
KC-10A - $88.4M
B-2A - $1,157M (that's $1.2 Billion)

[cmdrnmartin]

Whomever submitted the A-10 price adjustment to $98 Million - If you do it again I'll hunt you down. I'm serious.

If you do not know how much a plane costs, don't submit an edit just because you don't think it's fair.

"Cadet Air Patrol" Cessnas cost just as much as a civilian Cessna. They are civilian. If anything, the real CAP's Cessnas cost more than a civilian one becuase we add on additional equipment that's not available on civilian aircraft.

Also, purchasing a KC-10 because it has more range is very dishonest. Military Equipment is for Military use. Not so you can get a leg up on everyone else. Maybe if people are going to start doing that and using aircraft not available to civilians (the C-130, AN-124, and IL-76 are commercially available while the C-5, C-17, C-141, and KC-10 are not), then maybe we should not allow military aircraft to be on the system. We're expecting people to use the honor system here. If that can't be done, then maybe Konny needs to set more rules or we database admins need to just remove the planes and remove the problem.

Justin -

1) Flares and self-defense systems are GFE (government furnished equipment) and are not part of the cost of building the aircraft. Many aircraft are delivered simply with holes in them where that system goes and the system is installed by the military when it hits the depot maintenance facility (where all aircraft go before being sent to their assigned base).

2) Life Support systems are off-the-shelf. There's nothing more on a military aircraft than you'd find on a civilian one. In fact, in the case of the AN-124 and IL-76, the cargo area is unpressurized, so there are fewer life support systems as you don't need to move as much air. In aircraft like fighters and bombers, many have only 1 air cycle machine to work the pressurization and air conditioning system. This is less than even a Gulfstream (which has 2). Where the DC-10 has 3 A/C packs, the KC-10 only has 2.


Let me give you some "real world" figures. Cost is the Fly-Away cost in millions. Source: http://www.gruntsmilitary.com

F-16 - $18.8M
A-10 - $9.8M
F-15 - $29.8M
F-15E - $31.1M
B-1B - $283M
C-5B - $179M
C-130J - $48.5M
C-130H - $30.1M
KC-10A - $88.4M
B-2A - $1,157M (that's $1.2 Billion)

The An-124 has an unpressurized hold? Than how did i sit in one at 33 000 ft and not go hypoxic? Correction: Some do and some don't according to data I found. It depends on the operator and the upgrades. Needless to say the pressurized version is pricier.
In anycase, the prices the military pays are of no cvonsequence here, as we go by what a civilian purchasing one would cost, and that will be done based on performance and capacity.

As for your comment on flares etc, I will let the ridiculous statement go. If you think that all the defensive and navigational equipment doesnt go into the cost of the plane, fine, you can think that.

[kssyed]

Gents,

As someone said earlier if you dont know look it up. It's not really that hard. At the same time if you know something is grossly incorrect fix it, i.e., I saw the C-17 for 202 v$. Now I could have bought 10 of those but I went in and fixed it. Thats when the price went to 202,000,000 v$.

How you say? I looked it up. The price reflected 1998 dollars but that was what i found. Of course that is still quite a bit.

Remember, we are in this for the fun and enjoyment of simmimg. Lets keep it that way!

[CAPFlyer]

In anycase, the prices the military pays are of no cvonsequence here, as we go by what a civilian purchasing one would cost, and that will be done based on performance and capacity.

Actually, the price the military pays and the price a civilian would pay for an aircraft that is available to both is nearly identical unless major upgrades are done to it. If you really want to get down to 'brass tax', then we shouldn't be listing C-130s. We should be listing L-100s and L-382s. We shouldn't be listing the C-17, it should be the MD-17. If we want to go by what a civilian purchasing one would cost, then we need to delete all of the aircraft not available for public consumption. That includes the C-5, U-2, F-16, and every other modern US military fighter listed.

As for your comment on flares etc, I will let the ridiculous statement go. If you think that all the defensive and navigational equipment doesnt go into the cost of the plane, fine, you can think that.

GFE not installed on the airframe at the time of delivery is NOT part of the Fly Away or unit cost of the aircraft. The price shown in my listing is for exactly that. If it's not installed, then it's not included in the unit cost because the manufacturer does not get paid in their contract for items they don't install.

Actually, on the C-5A original contract, Lockheed wasn't even getting paid for the engines, only to install them. That allowed for the USAF to defer some of the cost from the contract and the project to help lessen the impact of the overruns being experienced in other areas of the program.

[JJacobs]

CAPFLYER that was me. I was in a hurry a the time and was trying to put 9.8 million. I'm used to putting 6 zero's not 5

[CAPFlyer]

I'll let you go.... this time....

Please people, when you're entering prices, triple check them before you click the "submit" button. Keeps us from having to deny a lot of them.

The A-10's price has been adjusted however.