Unexplained crashes - the accident investigation thread

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Christopher Barbas
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Post by Christopher Barbas » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:52 pm

Ok just happened again

Seconds after rolling out but before the 80knots callout, that is what heppend,

Image
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e275/ ... _13_00.png
I think it is an airport elevation bug, default scenery MFS9.

The report at Aegean Airlines Virtual web,

Type Reg Location Status State Fuel On Board
B744 SX-BE1 [LSD] HKJK Ready For Flight % 99.48 82,395 Kg.

As you can see the fuel I load for the flight is still on board.


Aircraft Details
Manufacturer Boeing
Model 747-400
Model ICAO Code B744
Owner Aegean Airlines Virtual - Express
Lease Info Leased From : Ionathan Airlines (Duration : 90 days)
Lease Return 10.02.2008
Registration SX-BE1
Location HKJK
Fuel On Board 82,395 Kg.
Passenger Capacity 416 Souls Without Crew
Cargo Capacity 34,759 Kg.
Cruise Speed 490 Kt.
Dry Operating Weight (DOW) 178,756 Kg.
Max Zero Fuel Weight (MZFW) 246,074 Kg.
Max Take Off Weight (MTOW) 396,893 Kg.
Market Price 200,000,000 v$
Current Value 198,976,556 v$
Total Flights 24 Flights
Total Time Flown 90.07 Hours
Total Miles Flown 36,380 Miles
Hull State % 99.19
Gear State % 98.41
Engine No 1 State % 99.83
Engine No 2 State % 99.83
Engine No 3 State % 99.83
Engine No 4 State % 99.83



Detailed Flight Report of Aegean Airlines Virtual - Express ;
Number AER8202
Departure Aerodrome HKJK
Arrival Aerodrome LGA
Pilot In Command AER212 - Christopher Barbas
Aircraft SX-BE1 [ B744 ]
Date Of Flight 20.11.2007
Departure Time 0953 UTC
Arrival Time 1001 UTC
Block Time 0.13 Hours
Arrival Aerodrome ( Divert ) HKJK
Distance 2,467 Nm.
Carried Pax 416 Souls
Carried Cargo 0 Kg.
Used Fuel 1,534 Kg.
Flight Income Flight Expense
Ticket Sales 0 v$ Pilot Salary 0 v$
Cargo Transfer 0 v$ Crew Salary 2,080 v$
Bonus 0 v$ Fuel Expense 107,292 v$

Gross Profit : -109,371 v$ ( -54,685,500 v$ )
Pilot Rating 30
Critique Taxi-speed exceeded 25kts Aircraft crashed Did not land at planned destination
FlyNET Client v0.6.9b
Sim Rate 1
Comments Of Pilot In Command ;


The report from FlyNET web

First name: Christopher
Surname: Barbas
Username: Christopher Barbas
E-Mail: c.barbas@gmail.com
User: Christopher Barbas
Virtual Airline: Aegean Airlines Virtual - Express
VA Rank: Pilot Team
VA ID: AER212
Rating: Captain (30.25)
Flight Rating (avg): 97.6%
Location: Jomo Kenyatta Intl
Budget: 95.278 v$

My rating has drop down to 97.6% from 99.8% again.


Last 5 flights
From To Arrival PAX Dist. Aircraft Income
HKJK HKJK Nov 20, 13:03 416 2467nm B744 -54.685.500v$


Flight Report
Pilot in Command Pilot ID Date
Christopher Barbas AER212 Nov 20 2007, 13:03

Flightnr. Virtual Airline Max simrate used
AER8202 Aegean Airlines Virtual - Express 1x

A/C Type Registration PAX
B744 SX-BE1 416

Departure Planned arrival Arrival Distance Duration Block Fuel
HKJK \ 09:53 LGAV HKJK \ 10:01 2467nm 00:08 (0.1h) 1534 kg

Rating Critique
30% Taxi-speed exceeded 25kts
Aircraft crashed
Did not land at planned destination

Comment
none

Finances
Income from tickets: PAX (416) x Ticketprice (0v$) 0v$
Fuel costs: Fuelprice (1.36v$) x 1.234 x Fuel bought (63931kg ) -107.292v$
Crew & catering costs: -2.080v$
Cargo income: 0v$/100nm x Distance (2467nm) x Cargo (0kg ) 0v$
Bonus 0v$
Pilot salary: Airline Income x Pilot salary percentage 0v$
Gross profit: -109.371v$
x Multiplier (500) -54.685.500v$

Client: v0.6.9b


Aircraft Info
Manufacturer Boeing
Type 747-400
ICAO Code B744
Owner Aegean Airlines Virtual - Express
Leased by Ionathan Airlines
Deposit 0 v$
Returns Feb 10, 10:09
Registration SX-BE1
Location HKJK
Passenger capacity 416
Fuel on board 82395 kg
Normal/Econ Cruise Speed 490 kt
Range 7200 nm
Dry Operating Weight 178756 kg
Max Zero Fuel Weight 246074 kg
Max Take Off Weight 396893 kg
Cargo Space 34759 kg
Status 99.5%
Total hours 90.07
Total landings 24
Last maintained
Value 198.976.556 v$

After all a friend of mine has just make a takeoff at the HKJK RWY06 and the aircraft has crashed too.

The question is, why is this happening when I have all crash detection off at FS9!

Regards
Christopher Barbas
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Konny
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Post by Konny » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:26 pm

Very strange, but only the client records a crash ? not the FS ?
The problem is that the client only reads the "crashed"-flag from the FS, there is no other crash-detection...So if you turn the crash-detection in the FS off, the client also shouldn't record a crash.
Konrad - FSAirlines Developer
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UKD192

Post by UKD192 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:20 pm

Christopher,

How may monitoring programs have you got running >
I can see FlyNET, FT Acars, and is that other one FS Flight Keeper ?.
I think it might be interaction between these 3 programs trying to access FS data.

Maybe you could try running only FlyNET by itself, and see what happens.

HTH
Rob

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Stan
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Post by Stan » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:23 pm

I dont have the PMDG 747 so i wouldn,t know the answer to this question.Does the aircraft bounce a bit when you look at it from the spot view.
Yours Stan
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Christopher Barbas
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Post by Christopher Barbas » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:25 am

Good day

Rob maybe you are right, maybe there is a conflict there with the other programs too.

But as I said a friend of mine has try out a takeoff there, just after I report it, off line with nothing at all to run, aircraft has bounce at the runway and crashed.

By me, as you can see above, FS has not crashed, I think FlyNET has record the crash of the aircraft first and then stop the flight.

The strange is that I have all crashes from all programs OFF.

I think it is a .bgl scenery conflict from original FS9 scenery.

I forgot to try out without any programs to run,I will.

Regards
Christopher Barbas
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Stan
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Post by Stan » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:25 am

If your aircraft is bouncing on the runway the client thinks you have taken off and so when you come down from the bounce it thinks you have landed again and records that you landed at wrong airport.I would suggest altering the "aircraft CG height" in the aircraft cfg file till your aircraft no longer bounces when you look at it from spot view.
Yours Stan
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Christopher Barbas
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Post by Christopher Barbas » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:33 am

Hallo again

Stan, I think the problem is not the aircraft.

It is reported many times that default FS9 scenery has these problems around the world, scenery developers too. ISD had the same problem at LIRF if I am not mistaken.

My friend has try it out with the same aircraft, PMDG B744, the result was the same, crash.

I think to edit the aircraft cfg, it is a little bit dangerous, many then come unexpected problems at other airports.

Can you explain it more that edit, an example.

Regards
Christopher Barbas
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Stan
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Post by Stan » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:31 pm

If you find an aircraft drops or bounces upwards when you go to the spot view it is because the contact points are slightly out.So if you find the {contact points} section of the cfg file at the bottom there is something like this:-
//static_pitch= -1.000
//static_cg_height= 13.625
gear_system_type=0
To stop your aircraft bouncing you have to keep changing the "static CG height " till you can go into spot mode without the aircraft bouncing.A good tip is to set the spot view so you can see the wing tips as soon as you go to spot view to see if they go up or down when it bounces.If they go down the cg height is too high because the plane is dropping to the runway .It doesn,t cause problems at other airports because the CG height is the height the aircraft thinks it is above the runway,if it is too high at one airport it will be too high at all airports.
Yours Stan
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Christopher Barbas
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Post by Christopher Barbas » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:34 pm

Thank you Stan

By the way I have try out some take off's from HKJK. You can see the aircraft bounce at the runway hard indeed.

That cause the problem there.

Regards
Christopher Barbas
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Stan
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Post by Stan » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:37 am

I agree with you.i tried running down the runway in the default cessna,it was up down all the way.Sometimes adding scenery can help but i dont think there is any for HKJK
Yours Stan
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Ionathan
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Post by Ionathan » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:13 pm

HKJK is not the only airport with problem in default FS9 with LAKO standing on top. It is actually a hole deep into the ground. By the way, for the non-Greeks, "Lakos" in Greek means "hole in the ground". LOL. Yes, I am speaking serious.
Another airport where I have experienced problems in the past was LIML. No crashes there but the aircraft (POSKY A333) goes as if the runway is covered with pebbles at higher speeds.

I believe Christopher's problem was surely casued by the scenery.
CEO
Ionathan Airlines

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Kimis

Post by Kimis » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:34 pm

I had problems landing at RWY 22L at EKCH by Swedflight with PMDG 747-400F.
other rwy or other aircraft has no problems. but PMDG's 747-400F crashes int nonexisting building right over the edge of RWY 22L. take care about that and choose 22R :)

IslandBum
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Post by IslandBum » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Ok Gents

I have now had 5 members have crashes in the last week - to the effect that our rep is now down to 72

Frankly I dont care about the v dollars but I DO care about the lack of enjoyment my guys are getting out

of Flynet at present --

Crash One - In cruise / enroute with nothing abnormal the client let go and the pilot found himself sitting at Manston
and charged with a crash

Crash 2 - In cruise Enroute PHNL/PANC a JHG B707 the client suddenly let go and the acft was transported from halway
up the Northern Pacific to Dillingham - charged with crash

Crash 3 = while taxxing RFP 747 KLAX (this may be one of the contact problems) Flynet deposited the pilot and acft back to
KMIA

Crash 4 - Enroute EGGW/LEGE David Maltby BAC111 in cruise - flynet disconnected - aircraft transported to some
obscure French militarty field and pilot charged with crash


If they were the same pilot / model / place I would say ok theres a problem at our end but these are four seperate
incidents by four different pilots in totally different aircraft models in different places of the world - the only item
that I see it the in cruise - and yes - theyre flying with the tracker turned off

Konny - any chance you can take a look please

Leif
Ho'olu komo la kaua
Leif Harding
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Venture Hawaii PLC

Konny
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Post by Konny » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:38 pm

wow, this is weird. You say that all theses guys were suddenly transfered to some airport and then got charged with a crash without the FS reporting a crash?
DaKurt is currently working in a complete rewrite of the client and we said we don't change anything in the old version anymore but if it really teleports you half around the world I will see what I can do.
Konrad - FSAirlines Developer
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IslandBum
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Post by IslandBum » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:16 pm

Not half way around the world Konny = It seems like it takes you to the closest airport in the country you departed - frinstance the 707 as I said was about 2-3 hours out of Honolulu going to Anchorage so Dillingham would have been the cloest airport in hawaii to the aircraft

Same with Manston vs Luton

The one that doesnt make any sense was my own where it deposited me on a French airfield - I always thought if the client registered a crash from FS it would return you to wherre you started

Its just annoying - if DaKurt is updating the client we can hobble through - but its a bit discouraging to the new guys who are trying to enjoy their flying -- By and large everyone who flies with us enjoys the challenge and the purpose that Flynet adds to
their sim flying

Just as an aside we have been busy flying non wheeled helicopters to effect with the client - not a lot of money but alot of enjoyment


Leif
Ho'olu komo la kaua
Leif Harding
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Venture Hawaii PLC

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