Flight was cancelled by Website ?!

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SnakeBite
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Flight was cancelled by Website ?!

Post by SnakeBite » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:31 am

Hi,,

I was flying a 23 hours flight, and it seems that it took me 24 hours to land,,, well ,, thats not the issue,, After I've landed I heard the beep which flynet client always play it after you park your jet, and exited FS.. And a statement appeard on my desktop saying "Your flight was cancelled by website"

Gone to Flynet website and it says..
From: Automatic Message Service
To XXXXXXXXX
Date: 04.06.2007 - 04:08


Your booking has expired. You were charged 59450v$.
Why do I have to lose some personal money, and the flight was recorded in our Airliner flight and also in my logbook ?

Thanks
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Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:06 am

How in the world were you flying a flight that long? There is not a single aircraft in the world capable of flying that long. The A340-600 and 777-200LR both have a maximum endurance of just over 19 hours.

From my standpoint, you were justly charged for flying an impossible flight. There is no civilian airplane capable of staying aloft for more than 20 hours at the most, so if you're flying flights longer than that, then you're cheating and thus you shouldn't get credit for that flight.
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Post by SnakeBite » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:19 am

Well, If Im cheating I wouldn't care about my personal money..

Then, It is possible to fly straight 24 hours for me, with FS9.. And I use Flynet for fun and not for cheating..

Get your Boeing 747-400 on 40,000 ft cruising at 0.82 flying east to west, and let me know if this is possible.. Well at least I can fly 23 hours straight, never done a 24 hours flight, but in the case I had, FS9 was minimized maybe for one or two hours, didn't know the reason so it is a 24 flight for flynet booking expiry time..

Anyway, some Pilots know how to manage their fuel better than others..

Anyway thanks for the help.. No Need for the money..
Last edited by SnakeBite on Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:20 am

Also, let this serve as notice that you and Busy Jet are on the watch list by the ADMINS.

Here's your last flight -

Aircraft - B747-400
Departure - EGYP \ 02:04
Arrival - ZYHB \ 23:52
Distance - 10403nm
Duration - 21.8h
Fuel Burn - 141314kg
Passengers - 410
Cargo - 24509kg

You've exceeded there maximum range of the 747-400 (about 8200NM).
You've exceeded the Maximum Takeoff Weight of the 747-400 just by the fuel you've burned, passengers, and cargo. This doesn't include the weight of the airplane. For you to have taken off, your airplane had to have weighed zero.

This kind of cheating is not looked upon very kindly. If you're plane's loaded to the gills with passengers (as it always is if you have a good reputaiton), then you'd better fly your airplanes like it.
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Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:23 am

SnakeBite wrote:Then, It is possible to fly straight 24 hours for me, with FS9.. And I use Flynet for fun and not for cheating..

Get your Boeing 747-400 on 40,000 ft cruising at 0.82 flying east to west, and let me know if this is possible.. Well at least I can fly 23 hours straight, never done a 24 hours flight, but in the case I had, FS9 was minimized, and the flight was paused for some reason so it is a 24 flight for flynet booking expiry time..

Anyway, some Pilots know how to manage their fuel better than others..
That is too funny dude. If you were flying the airplane loaded like the client made it, there is no way in hell you could go that far unless you're using a flight model that is grossly inaccurate or you're simply not flying with any weight in it (most likely). The 747-400 with the passenger and cargo payload that FlyNET gives you has a maximum range of 6000NM. Failing to load any weight into your airplane so that you can fly almost twice the actual range of the aircraft is CHEATING.

BTW - if you're flying on FlyNET for fun, then why are you using FlyNET? We're not here for your personal fun and games. We're here to add a bit of purpose and realism to our operations. If you want to fly the long flights and not load any passengers onto your plane like the client directs you to, then do it without FlyNET like most of the other VA's out there.
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Post by SnakeBite » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:25 am

CAPFlyer wrote:Also, let this serve as notice that you and Busy Jet are on the watch list by the ADMINS.

Here's your last flight -

Aircraft - B747-400
Departure - EGYP \ 02:04
Arrival - ZYHB \ 23:52
Distance - 10403nm
Duration - 21.8h
Fuel Burn - 141314kg
Passengers - 410
Cargo - 24509kg

You've exceeded there maximum range of the 747-400 (about 8200NM).
You've exceeded the Maximum Takeoff Weight of the 747-400 just by the fuel you've burned, passengers, and cargo. This doesn't include the weight of the airplane. For you to have taken off, your airplane had to have weighed zero.

This kind of cheating is not looked upon very kindly. If you're plane's loaded to the gills with passengers (as it always is if you have a good reputaiton), then you'd better fly your airplanes like it.
Excuse me,, but how can I prove and all Busy Jet members that we're not cheating ?

The Boeing 747-400 can get this amount of fuel onboard 173705.0124609781 kg

Cargo: 43966.70842409952 kg

So, please what did I exceed ?

ah,, this pic may become a reference


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Last edited by SnakeBite on Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:28 am

There's nothing to prove. You cheated on that flight because your fuel burn and payload exceeded the Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight for the aircraft by several thousand kilograms. The numbers are in the database and there's no way for them to be manipulated.
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Post by SnakeBite » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:48 am

What was my take-off weight ?

can we have it ?

The maximum Gross Weight of the boeing 747-400 is 875000 lb or 396893.323749 in kgs

This is Microsoft's data not mine nor Boeing..
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Post by vaccaro » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:53 am

Just a question
Why on earth one flies a flight that long?
Personally (as a RL pax and a virtual pilot) I get bored if I am on a flight which is more than 3 or 4 hours.
Also with the new avionics and etc. flying long hauls is not fun.

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Post by Tomb » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:07 am

actually he is not cheating we have discussed this in the past.

i fly the PDMG queen of the skies which has near twice the fuel burn of the the stock MS B747 at the same wieghts

incidently i have had the MS B747 airborne for over 27 hours and landed which is of course at max endurance setting not max range (for those that need educating on the difference) theorectically i reckon over 30 hours is possible with the stock MS B747 since you can get the fuel burn down to 10,000lbs an hour while on the PDMG getting it under 20,000lbs an hour is tough incidently the stock B777 is more generous on fuel than PSS B777-300ER (different engine model may well account for that)

a certain dude has opened his mouth before checking anything like his facts concerning busy jet and is doing it again.

no body in Busy Jet that i have obseverd "Cheats" and we take all our lumps, you just have to witness our rating going up and down unlike those suspicious airlines whos ratings never change, we log em all, if you bend it ,you bend it and its logged, land aways, crashes its all thier. those airlines that never crash are simply not logging them, now thats cheating.

as and until Flynet gains anything like the sophistcation of FS passengers load out and economic model, we all have to live with the limitations of flynet and the stock MS aircraft as it stands

we also have to live with the dude who is incapable of checking any facts

until both of those situations can be improved thats the way it is, that and the word BETA means we take our enjoyment for flynet and the stock MS aircraft "as is" the data base is way inaccurate and no basis for accurate loads, thats another limitation we live with.

within those limitations we enjoy our flying.

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Post by IslandBum » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:11 pm

Gentlemen

If I may direct your attention to the following link http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=100

The B747-400ER at MTOW 910,000lbs has a range of 7670NM (Still Air) at 490Knts - this would give a maximum endurance
of 15.6 hours - so it matters little what PMDG or anyother "modelmaker" says - Boeing says the aircraft is incapable of
staying in the air that long - so 21, or 24 or 27 hours in the air is totally unrealistic. I believe Flynets data base uses the same source that I do BAC backed by Airliners.net as credible sources

As an aside - My maintenance controller in the real world who I trust implicity as he has 35 plus years in the industry as an
A&P serviced JALs flights from Las Vegas to Tokio, tells me that flight was at the maximum limits of the 747-400s range -
I think if you check the airmileage that comes out to about 7500NM great circle.

ATB

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Post by Tomb » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:46 pm

thats in still air of course going eastwards at the right hieght i can add some 1500 miles to that using real weather

max quoted range has been exceeded by Quantas on more than one occasion as El-Al for max pax load, Record is 1088 pax

having a go at a pilot for using stock MS planes is completely out of order, the fault is with the plane not the pilot for extracting the max performace he can.

if he had altered the relavent files, well that is cheating but he has not, using the plane and prevailing real weather conditions to achieve what he has is fair play.

incidently i checked the PDMG B747-400 against a level D simulator in 2 engine configs and it is very close, in fact one of the other B747-400 simulators was shown to have errors in, Not bad for a PC program V a 20 million dollar simulator

the best that can be said about the MS B747 is it at least looks like a B747 and thats what most have availble to them and that is what they fly and since its availble to most if not all FS users thier is no "cheat" involved since all can use it if they consider thier is some advantage to do so.

as for database wieghts the flynet DB is not that close to real numbers and a fairly vital number that should be included is max landing wieght but i digress.







regards

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Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:17 pm

Bob, the ONLY numbers that the DB Admins care about are the numbers that are in the database. The numbers in the database show that the 747-400 CANNOT operate a 23-hour segment under any circumstance.

BTW, your "add 1500nm flying east" is a misleading statement. Does it include the required overwater reserves for an eastbound flight? Does it include a departure with a plane loaded to MZFW and then fueled to MTOW or is it under MTOW?

The important numbers for the 747-400 are such (from the Database) -

Dry Operating Weight 178756 kg
Max Zero Fuel Weight 246074 kg
Max Take Off Weight 396893 kg
Cargo Capacity 34759 kg

Again from the flight log -

410 passengers (at 100kg/pax) - 41000kg
410 Pax Baggage (at 25kg/pax) - 10250kg
Cargo - 249509kg

That gives a payload weight of - 300759kg
Plus the aircraft Weight gives you 479515kg or 82622kg over the MTOW of the aircraft.

Okay, so we give that FlyNET doesn't take ZFW into account when loading the aircraft and reduce the load to MZFW (or 67318kg of payload). This means that with the 747-400, your maximum fuel at ZFW is 150819kg. He burned 141314kg for his flight of 22 hours, leaving him with (at most) 9505kg of fuel in the tanks. That means that he had to have been burning 6418kg/hr of fuel. The nominal burn for a 747-400 at LONG RANGE CRUISE after a MTOW departure is ~11700kg/hr. I'm ignoring the required reserves because I understand that not everyone is going to take the time to figure those out, but 9500kg of fuel is not enough if you had figured them out.

It has been stated in the past on this forum that it is the responsibility of the airlines to ensure that their routes conform to the specs of the aircraft and that anything in excess will be viewed as cheating. It has also been acknowledged that the default aircraft are not even remotely accurate in many aspects and we have left it up to good judgement not take measures to ensure that people keep things reasonable. 22 hours in a 747-400 isn't reasonable.

One last thing - EGYP has a 2590m runway. At MTOW, the 747-400 requires a 3300m runway for departure. I want to know how the flight got airborne with that much weight on a runway that was over 700 meters too short. Not only that, but Mt. Pleasant's runway can only support about 225,000kg, so a 747 would be grossly overstressing the runway in real life as well.

Again, I'll stress the point - your operations are grossly unrealistic. If you want to do that, then maybe you should consider doing so outside of FlyNET. As it says on the "Info & Rules" page, the primary purpose of FlyNET is to -
Create and manage a virtual airline in a realistic ( more or less ;-) ) economy environment
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Post by Tomb » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:51 pm

in a realistic enviroment, you really dont want to get me started on that ;)

as far as long range flights go i can only speak for myself in that i use a load editor and frankly i dont load passengers instead of the req'd fuel, as you would in real life however for me this is usually not an issue since i choose planes such as the B777-200LR where this is not an issue

what it is an issue is flynet wont allow you to reduce passenger load because very long range flights usually dont fly full.

at the moment all my flights fly full.

as regards to mount pleasant you cannot expect a non professional to know the runway limits or even where to look

what airline rules apply as regard minimum take off distances are set by airlines and ours in busy jets are if you can physicaly get the thing in and out with the correct load then fair enough since unless you have access to the req'd documentation you wont know the legal TORA/TODA you can use to 50ft

until flynet does the req'd research and applys limits to each runways max landing wieghts thats how its going to be.

any way none of this is "cheating" it is operating within the limits we have.

the cheating accusation of that Pilot is false, we dont slew or modify files or unlimited fuel or the other cheating stuff.

any Busy Jet pilot does that and they are history

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Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:32 am

The required runway for the aircraft at MTOW is available on no less than a dozen websites, including twice on the Boeing website. It is established by the MANUFACTURER during flight testing, not the airlines. Again, I want to know how he physically got an aircraft departing at MTOW off a runway that was 700m shorter than the minimum runway required per the manufacturer.
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