PDMG 744 Fuel problems

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Rav

PDMG 744 Fuel problems

Post by Rav » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:31 pm

Hello all.

Iam never one to double post or anything but i have been instructed to re-post this in the bug + problem section so here it is.


Hi everyone.

Iam having big problems after loading the fuel through the Flynet client in the PDMG 744. It says in the manual "never try and load fuel with anything else but the 747 load manager. I assume this is the problem. Is there any way around this? I would be gutted if i couldn't use the whale :(

Rav

Post by Rav » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:15 am

Mega Bump!

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Post by Konny » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:04 am

Hm, unfortunately I don't have the PDMG 744, but maybe I can help anyway. What exactly happens when you try to fuel the 744 through the client ?
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Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:37 pm

Konny, the issue is that some aircraft have very advanced fuel tank arrangements. The PMDG, HJG, and most of the offerings from the Classic British Aircraft designers (the CBFS that CBFS VA originated from) have more than a left, centre, and right tank, and more importantly, have specific fueling sequences to be followed. As such, using FS & FSUIPC's "fuel all" function doesn't work very well because it misloads the fuel tanks.

I don't know if this is possible to do Konny, but is it possible to only set the maximum fuel loaded and then allow the user to sort it out or to have some sort of automated system that recognizes each tank and its contents within the CFG file for the aircraft and then displays a loading window that allows you to load each tank individually?

For those who don't want to load individual tanks, there could still be a "total" window that does 2 things -

1) Allows for total amount to be ordered for automatic loading of fuel tanks.
2) Keeps track of amounts entered into the individual tank fields.

OR

There could be a radio button above the loading window that says "basic"and one that says "advanced", selecting one of these would toggle which mode (single entry or multiple entry) the pilot sees.
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Post by Konny » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:21 pm

Hm, according to the FSUIPC SDK there are 11 different fuel-tanks the FS recognizes and they are filled by the Client in the following order:
Left/Right Main -> Left/Right Aux -> Left/Right Tip -> Center 1-3 -> External 1,2

If some aircrafts designers use a special trick to use more tanks it would help to see a cfg-file.

But you're right a loading window is something which would really be useful. Guess we have a new task for DaKurt ;)
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Post by IslandBum » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:27 am

Konny

If Kurt can create a fuel loading chart/window it would be great - Chris is 100% correct - the BAC 111 although it only has three tanks needs to have at least 2000# loaded in the center tank - The Viscount (especially the new Fraser Mckay panel) is a real fuelers nightmare (Right Chris??? :wink: ) and will not run if not fuel correctly - same with the Vanguard and to a lesser extent the Trident. - so anything you can whip up would be great (I also think that down the road if you decide to include a weight and balance system into Flynet it will make things two steps easier from the get go)


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Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:24 am

Konny wrote:Hm, according to the FSUIPC SDK there are 11 different fuel-tanks the FS recognizes and they are filled by the Client in the following order:
Left/Right Main -> Left/Right Aux -> Left/Right Tip -> Center 1-3 -> External 1,2

If some aircrafts designers use a special trick to use more tanks it would help to see a cfg-file.

But you're right a loading window is something which would really be useful. Guess we have a new task for DaKurt ;)
Konny, depending on how many engines are on the plane and how the real aircraft's fuel system is setup. On the 747, one must fuel the #1 & #4 Aux tanks to full at all times. They must then Fuel the #1 & #4 Mains to the same level as the #2 and #3 tanks MINUS the quantity in the #1 & #4 Aux tanks. Once all the Main tanks are full, then you start fueling the Center Aux until it's full and then put the rest in the Stabilizer Aux tank. Your way of doing it doesn't fuel that way.

The DC-10 fuels all three main tainks (#1, #2, & #3) equally until all full and then you fill the Upper and Lower Aux tanks per a prescribed pattern (there's a chart to use for it).

The number of main tanks is dependent on the number of engines and their fuel schedule is usually to fuel the mains equally until full and then the aux tanks afterwards.
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Post by joefremont » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:24 am

A simple fix might be to have a check box in the client that has the effect of leaving the fuel levels as they are instead of entering the fuel amount and having the client reload it.
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Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:49 am

That would allow unhindered cheating though Joe. We've already had several VAs use unlimited fuel cheats to not have to buy fuel, why would they not then use such an option to their advantage as well?

The point of FlyNET is to add that extra dimension. What dimension are you adding when you can buy no fuel via the client and then set whatever fuel you want in the sim? There has to be some sort of mechanism to prevent users from abusing the sytem and requiring them to still buy fuel while allowing the use of the as many FS aircraft models as possible and not restrict them only to aircraft who's fuel tanks are setup to work with FlyNET. I think it's easier to modify FlyNET to than to ask VAs and modellers to change their aircraft setups.
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Post by IslandBum » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:31 am

Chris

I can understand that there might be some who would cheat the system - My feeling is that a fueling schedule might
be tied in with a tanker program - where there would be a check box that asked if the pilot was tankering through and
also what his next intended leg would be - the program could be set up so that if the aircraft was flown on a leg OTHER
than the one proposed then a cost penalty could be applied to that leg - personally I would love to be able to fuel
in somewhere like Henderson , Pago Pago or even Hilo before setting off on a multiple leg flight where tankering would
actually make us some money. I f Konny and Kurt would like - I have a simple tankering program (albeit for JT8Ds and
the MD80) which we use with our REAL airline, which works basically on a cost index vs fuel burn. I would be more than
happy to donate it to the cause. At the same time to reiterate something John P (Quantum) has aired several times and
I am aware you have as well - that fuel loads vs payload be added to the equation - making longer range flight possible
but at the cost of decreasing passengers and or Cargo (I say and or because with larger aircraft like it might be more
profitable to decrease the cargo carrying capability rather than passengers.


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Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:22 pm

Lief, I agree with you, I don't agree with Joe's post that you just be able to turn off the system cutting off the lockout on the FS-side fuel which would allow you to set whatever fuel you want without having to purchase the fuel.

Now, the tankering thing should definitely be a button, but it should be something like "add fuel for tankering" and then have a new box show up to allow you to set how much of the total fuel you've loaded is the tankering fuel. Then, X% of that will be charged on the each flight after that which does not add any fuel and then any leftover will be charged the next time that the plane has fuel loaded into it.
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Post by Konny » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:09 pm

Well, to have everything together, what you want is:

You go to the refuel page in the Client and then you have the choice:
- Let the Client do the refueling
- Let the Client do the refueling but you can decide how much fuel and in which tanks
- You refuel your airplane with the FS or any other tool and the Client just looks up how much fuel you added

Guess everyone would be happy with this solution ;)
Last edited by Konny on Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Marc Joy » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:19 pm

Sorry, but as english is not my native language, I might repeat some things my way, so if it is, sorry for that...

Wouldn't be easyer to have buttons like this :

1st button choice : just like now, as it works and seemed for now not beeing a big problem for a lot of people
2nd button choice : just let the client calculate the difference between fuel left in plane and new fuel amount refulled by any external program

And after that, you have the same system as now, nothing can be changed anymore once flight is started with the client on.

Do not add too complicated things for people like me who are flying for fun, a little touch of realism, but we are not all pilots in life... so please keep one way very simple for simple planes...

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Post by joefremont » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:08 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:That would allow unhindered cheating though Joe. We've already had several VAs use unlimited fuel cheats to not have to buy fuel, why would they not then use such an option to their advantage as well?
No that's not what I meant at all, if this option was selected rather than asking how much fuel to load the client would detect how much fuel is loaded and purchase the appropriate amount. If someone really wants to cheat on fuel there are already several ways to do that. I am a little offended that you though I was suggesting away to cheat. This discussion had been about loading fuel not purchasing it.
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Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:17 pm

Konny, that works.
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