Flight profit adjustment

READ THIS FORUM FIRST! Here are the rules and important information for you.

Moderator: FSAirlines Staff

Konny
FSAirlines Developer
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:40 am
Location: Munich, Germany
Contact:

Flight profit adjustment

Post by Konny » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:52 pm

Hi guys,

Guess a lot of people won't like it, but with the Client there comes a drastic profit adjustment concerning the flights. The multiplier is now set back to 100x. It was way to easy to get money. $100mio for one flight is a bit too much ;-) I hope this also helps to lower the number of one-man-airlines. Don't misunderstand me, I don't have something against them, but if you can create an airline with tens of aircrafts alone within weeks, there's something wrong ;-)

The other thing I changed is the money in dependency of the max. simrate used. The profit is now divided by the simrate. This not totally fair, because nobody can fly with 16x during the whole flight, but in my opinion it's ok to support the realtime-flyers a bit. If someone has a better solution, please tell me :-)
Konrad - FSAirlines Developer
Image

User avatar
cmdrnmartin
FSAirlines DB Admin
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:54 am
Location: CYWG

Post by cmdrnmartin » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:55 pm

Both changes sound ok to me...

I prefer the penalty for the 16x to the rate decrease, but I can live with them.

BTW: Wardair does not want to be a Two Person Airline, feel free to join us any time!

One further issue though, with the change in multiplier, maintenance. Suppose a 747 crossing the Atlantic lands a wee bit rough, and for calculations sake, supose it is now at 99.5%. Now that entails a cost of 1 000 000 to fix (.5% of 200 000 000) Usually the 747 flight would make 57 million, or somewhere around there, now, with only 100x, and the penalty for 16x, probably expect only 5 million. And a fifth of that is going to maintenance. We'll all be skating a very thin line on flights now. Perhaps change the percentage cost for maintaining the aircraft? Anyways, just something i thought of.

Leases will be quite lucrative now I suspect. Might have to reduce rates overall though.
Image
Image

Matthew
Captain
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:49 pm

Post by Matthew » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:28 pm

Oh, Sounds good!!!. More realistic. Seems tho my flights prices will rise alot. And i have a few pilots ready to join which is good

User avatar
CAPFlyer
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3045
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:49 am
Location: Lancaster, Texas, USA
Contact:

Post by CAPFlyer » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:21 am

cmdrnmartin wrote:One further issue though, with the change in multiplier, maintenance. Suppose a 747 crossing the Atlantic lands a wee bit rough, and for calculations sake, supose it is now at 99.5%. Now that entails a cost of 1 000 000 to fix (.5% of 200 000 000) Usually the 747 flight would make 57 million, or somewhere around there, now, with only 100x, and the penalty for 16x, probably expect only 5 million. And a fifth of that is going to maintenance. We'll all be skating a very thin line on flights now. Perhaps change the percentage cost for maintaining the aircraft? Anyways, just something i thought of.
All I can say is - "Welcome to the real world."

Seriously Justin, if you make a hard landing and bend something, it's gonna hurt the bottom line pretty severely.

Think of it this way, each tire costs $10K, each wheel another $10K. A brake for ONE WHEEL is $20-$25K.

So, you blow a couple of tires or brake a bit hard, you'll be out $50,000 in short order. You damage a flight structure, it's gonna cost a LOT more. Then again, my numbers are for a 727, not a 747, so the price for any structural repair goes up drastically although cost for tires and brakes don't go up as quickly.
Image

User avatar
cmdrnmartin
FSAirlines DB Admin
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:54 am
Location: CYWG

Post by cmdrnmartin » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:43 am

I still think that if Airlines paid 1 million in maintenance on each bird after 4 or so flights, they'd all be in the hole real fast. I agree, you land hard, you should pay a price, but maintenance costs should not be Half a Million after a flight, it seems excessive. And this penalty will hit people who fly shorter flights a lot harder than the long haul people, so Im not nagging for personal gain, rather for the people flying little Embraers or even Cessnas on 100nm journeys.
Image
Image

BigQ

Post by BigQ » Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:58 am

I'd be for changing the price of maintenance, but only for the "less-than-2000nm-range aircrafts... otherwise, i think we can manage the additional cost...

Ionathan
Captain
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:41 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Post by Ionathan » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:20 pm

I like the x100 factor (I would agree with an even smaller like x50) but personally I don't like the time compression limitation. I like long range flights but I definitely have not that much time (not even in m dreams). A compromise I could suggest would be to have no penalty up to x4 and after that use your formula of diveding.

Just my personal opinion.
CEO
Ionathan Airlines

Image

BigQ

Post by BigQ » Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:46 pm

Ionathan wrote:I like the x100 factor (I would agree with an even smaller like x50) but personally I don't like the time compression limitation. I like long range flights but I definitely have not that much time (not even in m dreams). A compromise I could suggest would be to have no penalty up to x4 and after that use your formula of diveding.

Just my personal opinion.
Which would definately help the smaller, short-haul operators... makes sense...

Ionathan
Captain
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:41 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Post by Ionathan » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:06 pm

Well, I am back with some more thoughts, concerns and suggestions about the new finance system.

1. New VAs.

Consider a newcomer VA who starts with 25 millions and buys a CRJ-200 (as I did). The aircrafts costs 21 millions leaving teh VA with 4 millions cash. The specific aircrafts, with the old system, could make about 3 millions after a two-hours flight, considering the repair costs as well. Most people used some time compression, let-s say an average of 4x. A B734 which is a very popular Jet costs 43 millions so based on the above we have:
43millions - 4 millions = 39 millions,
then 39 millions / 3 millions = 13 two-hour flights
and with a 4x time compression we have 13*2/4 = 6.5 real clock hours for the first B734 with maximum fuel efficiency which is not the real strength of a newcomer.

Now with the new system we have:
39 millions / 300000 (using the 100x multiplier) = 130 two hour flights
and since we have the time compression penalty we are talking about 130*2 = 260 real clock hours.
A VA with 2 pilots very active who fly hours daily would need 260/4 = 65 days or 2 months to buy a single B734!! Remember, I am not talking about a VA with 2 pilots but a VA with 2 daily active pilots. How many VAs can you remember being that lucky in FlyNet? How many months would be needed for a bigger aircraft?
For me, it is more than enough to turn a new VA away from FlyNet.

My suggestion: Apply no penalty for time compression up to 4x. We are virtual pilots by hobby and have real life families, real life jobs and real lives in general. We cannot sit in front of a PC for 6-7 hours. At least most of us. It's good to have some level of realism and to support people prefering to fly as rel as possible with 1x but don't leave aside all the real/life busy people.


2. One-man Airlines

I understand the new finance system aims in reducing the one/man airlines and this is not somethign I am against. However, it should not actually "prohibit" a new VA start (see previous paragraph) for any non-deidicated people. If someone finds it that much difficult to make a VA with himself and another person for start, he will not join another FlyNet VA but one og those really large and interesting VAs out there (British Airways virtual, AirFrance etc.). I have said again in the past the FlyNet may have the economic model which is very interesting for CEOs but not really important to a pilot who can only fly.

My suggestion: Do not make starting a VA that difficult, apply the "4x no penalty" rule and increase the starting budget to something like 40 millions. Also, give some more option for pilots. Discussion has been done in the past about private aircrafts (however I don't understand what exciting things a pilot could do with them except just flying as he does for his VA), casinos and titles market.

3. Leasing

Leasing has accepted a great hit with the new finance system. In teh past I didi not hesitate to lease an aircraft to any airline. Even ig they crashed it, I could easily make the money back. Even a B744 could easily be covered with two or three long range flights. Now things are changed. Personally I do not want to lease as a crashed aircraft will take hundreds of flights to cover the damage.

My suggestion: It is urgent need to introduce insurance which will cover, say a 80%-90% of the damage or whatever (I am not an expert). It may be not realistic to earn 100 millions in one flight (and a B744 could earn more in economy flying) but it is not realistic as well not to be able to insure the aircraft. Importatn here is the incurance will have to be applicable upon choice on specific (chosen aircrafts) which means "optional insurance" as most VAs have much more aircrafts than pilots and would end up paying insurance for idle aircrafts. I will say proactively for any realism fun who would like to comment here, on my last suggestion, that we are a simulation and not reality.

Sorry for the extended message.
CEO
Ionathan Airlines

Image

User avatar
CAPFlyer
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3045
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:49 am
Location: Lancaster, Texas, USA
Contact:

Post by CAPFlyer » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:24 pm

cmdrnmartin wrote:I still think that if Airlines paid 1 million in maintenance on each bird after 4 or so flights, they'd all be in the hole real fast.
That's true, but for every 1 flight a real airline flies they don't get paid for 100.

Remember that the multiplier that we use is in effect paying us for flying 100 flights for every 1 flight. So that $1 Million you paid was actually $10,000 (divide by 100) for your one flight. That's not even a tire. :)

I think what you guys keep losing track of is that the multiplier has to work both ways. We can't have a 100x multiplier on our revenues and not have it on things like maintenance and penalties. It might make sense to tweak the cost down slightly, but we have to keep in mind that everything is going to be 100 times bigger than in real life since we're simulating that there were 100 other flights flown for each one logged into the system.
Image

User avatar
cmdrnmartin
FSAirlines DB Admin
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:54 am
Location: CYWG

Post by cmdrnmartin » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:08 pm

Alright, I've been relatively quiet on this, because i was talking only in Hypothesis, but I've flown a flight under the new system, and I don't think it's going to work.

First Point and overiding factor: This is not reality. It is a fun system, but it is not reality. Let's face it, we are not flying real airlines here, we don't have mega fleets, with 400+ flights each and every day. Our rosters for our VA's, even the big VA's, are usually somewhere from 20 to 30 memebers. The requirements are usually a flight every 2 weeks. What I'm saying is your never going to see true airline level momvements on FLYnet. We must sacrifice reality PARTIALLY for accessibility. Because, if no one plays on FLYnet, or wants to, it looses a lot of it's appeal.

Now, as i've said, i flew a flight. CYYC to CYEG, in a 738. I bought the fuel, did everything, and actually made a profit with the x100 multiplier. My profit was just around 400 000. Not too bad, but my aircraft costs 63 million. Ooo, not going to be buying many of those on 400 000 a flight. And Maintenance, it cost me just about 100 000 dollars to maintain the bird. And I came in softly too, not a cruncher. Now for me, its no big deal, Wardair has a lot of cash. But let's assume that this was a long haul flight. And I needed to use the time compression. Say, 2x. My profit is now 300 000. At 4x, I've made no net gain. At 8x, I have a net loss. At 16x Im really in the hole.

Suppose that it was a new VA, with 30 people in it, flying the same route (no compression). Suppose they could all use the plane at the same time. Suppose they all flew, twice a week. So 60 flights a week. 18 000 000 Million dollars. Now this is very generous, because no one used time compression, they all flew (finding 30 people to do2 flights is difficult) and they did it with one (not availible from th start) plane. And they still made not enough to buy a second plane. Extending on this, it will take 1 month, of 30 people, flying twice a week, with no time compression, and near perfect landings, to be able to afford another, small plane. A widebody will run you 2 months, A 747, 3 months. Growth will Stagnate and people WILL abandon Flynet, which is a damn shame because it makes flights interesting, and its free.

Now I'm not one to complain without a solution, here is my proposal.

All airlines with a net worth under 500 million dollars get a 1000x multiplier.
All Airlines between 500 million and 3 billion get a 500x multiplier.
All Airlines above 3 billion get a 400x multiplier.
This will allow for growth for new VA's up to a point, and then will slowly taper the growth off. As A VA gets larger, its ranks will grow, but the multiplier drops, balancing it out. And this way, maintenance costs don't have to be changed from their current standards.


You do not get penalized for using the time compression. However the top 5 pilots with the most hours actually flown get 50 million given to their VA, and 50 000 into their personal account. Again, Accessibility, people want to fly long haul, and not get slammed because they only have 2 hours to spend instead of 8 in front of a screen. If people want to fly at 1x, let them, reward them. If they want to do it at 16x, let them, don't penalize them because they have other commitments besides the diversion of FlyNET. If they are penalized, they will take their time elsewhere, and this will not be good for flyNET.

Even a small airline wants growth, and with only a few people, a Cessna 208 for example, will not make the money required at 100x + Maintenance / Compression to fund a new one. At least, not for a long time.

Now, real airlines get by, by having flights every day, hundreds of them, and we cant do that. We must relax "realism" to allow for "accessibility", and oh yeah fun.

So, as was said, A Scalable multiplier to create an inverse exponential growth pattern. Rewards for people who put in a lot of time at 1x (for their dedication) but no penalties for those that can only fly at 16x, for whatever reason. As Ionathan pointed out, people can, and will move to the big VAs on the net, if they find themselves getting stuck on FLYNet. And admittedly, even with the 1000x multiplier, a lot of new members till get in trouble. Look at the saga of MMouse air, but he found a way around that. The reason that there is syuch a disparity in the airlines right now, with Ionathan, Wardair, Kiwaroo, etc being miles beyound is because we stuck through the begginings, learned how to make a profit, and carefully made decisions on how to proceed. As it stands right now, it will take, and eternity to get a new VA off the ground and buy a new jetliner. And thats not accessible.

Scale the rate based on a VAs net worth.
Dont penalize people who can only find a few hours each day to voluntarily be a part of this system.
Don't make it harder than it already is for a VA to get off their feet. In fact I havnt seen a new VA since Kiwaroo thats pulled themselves up without outside help. All those airlines like jetNOW, iFLYSmart etc, are all possible because the big airlines we're partially funding them, giving them good leases, because we ourselves knew how hard it was.
And of course, Recognize the difference between something that is realistic, and something that is mean to be fun.

My little thoughts.
Comments on how to improve the system are greatly appreciated.
Last edited by cmdrnmartin on Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
Image

User avatar
CAPFlyer
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3045
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:49 am
Location: Lancaster, Texas, USA
Contact:

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:54 am

Justin, heres the one item that blows a massive hole in your whole deal -

You're talking WAY TOO BIG.

My C208 (got 5 of them, so realistically I can have up to 10 pilots to ensure that everyone has a plane available most of the time at the hub to start out from), gains me approximately $50,000 a flight on the new system for 2 of the 3 legs. It looses approximately $50,000 on the first leg due to topping off with fuel. This gives me a net revenue per trip of the airplane of $50,000. Now, each new C208 would cost me $1.7M which would mean that I'd need to make 34 round trips, or about 200 hours of flying. That means that if I have 10 pilots, it would take me 2.5 months to earn enough for a new C208 if they all fly 8 hours a month. That's not a long time.

You're wanting to grow an airplane every couple of weeks, that is EXACTLY what Konny is trying to prevent. You are trying to make rapid growth, not responsible growth. You need to earn your new planes, not make 2 or 3 trips and magically get a new bird (which was how it was). When you want to move up, it will take a bit to get that first plane, but every time you get a new plane that is larger, your profits grow to match. The more expensive the plane, the more potential profit you can get, thus it still ends up that you can purchase a similarly sized airplane every couple of months. That's a good growth rate.
Image

User avatar
CAPFlyer
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3045
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:49 am
Location: Lancaster, Texas, USA
Contact:

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:57 am

One thing that I will suggest though -

Second Hand purchase.

The new VAs purchase and lease aircraft second hand at much lower rates than new planes. This means that they can make their initial growth fairly quickly and then replace the older aircraft with new ones once they are established and making enough money to be able to trade up.

I want you to find me a new startup that has EVER started with more than 1 or 2 airplanes that were brand new. 99% of airline startups start with used airplanes and then purchase new aircraft as they get the funds to grow or simply replace the older aircraft with newer or brand new ones.
Image

MickeyMouse

Post by MickeyMouse » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:55 am

As far as the multiplier, I really don't care, but the sim rate sucks. This "is" the reasons I came to FlyNET. If it comes down to flying in real time, I don't have that sort of free time and it makes FlyNET not much different than other VA's. I realize you haven't removed it, but it sure limits the income, specially with the new multiplier.

Hey, whatever everyone else wants and the makers want. In the end, I don't fly near as much as others do here, so it really doesn't matter.

User avatar
cmdrnmartin
FSAirlines DB Admin
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:54 am
Location: CYWG

Post by cmdrnmartin » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:10 am

CAPFlyer wrote:Justin, heres the one item that blows a massive hole in your whole deal -

You're talking WAY TOO BIG.

My C208 (got 5 of them, so realistically I can have up to 10 pilots to ensure that everyone has a plane available most of the time at the hub to start out from), gains me approximately $50,000 a flight on the new system for 2 of the 3 legs. It looses approximately $50,000 on the first leg due to topping off with fuel. This gives me a net revenue per trip of the airplane of $50,000. Now, each new C208 would cost me $1.7M which would mean that I'd need to make 34 round trips, or about 200 hours of flying. That means that if I have 10 pilots, it would take me 2.5 months to earn enough for a new C208 if they all fly 8 hours a month. That's not a long time.

You're wanting to grow an airplane every couple of weeks, that is EXACTLY what Konny is trying to prevent. You are trying to make rapid growth, not responsible growth. You need to earn your new planes, not make 2 or 3 trips and magically get a new bird (which was how it was). When you want to move up, it will take a bit to get that first plane, but every time you get a new plane that is larger, your profits grow to match. The more expensive the plane, the more potential profit you can get, thus it still ends up that you can purchase a similarly sized airplane every couple of months. That's a good growth rate.
To be fair, you're thinking way too small. You neglected dividing by 16 for people who use time compression. Your 1.7 million divided by that is 106 250. For, as you put it 200 hours of flying. You also neglected maintenance fees, which will add up. Let's think about a larger airline, suppose you had only a 767, and you were flying NAT Tracks. We'll even say you didnt use time compression, to be fair. You could have one pilot fly that bird for 6 hours straight, then hand it off to another pilot, assuming they wanted to fly at midnight or at 3 am. But your only going to get 4 flights a day from it. As well, your 50 000 dollars, I don't know where your getting it from, your best flight had a profit of 250 000 dollars under the old system, thats 25 000 under the new system. So your estimate of when you'd get your next new plane must be doubled, to 4 months. And thats with ten active pilots flying consistently. 4 months is a quarter of a year, to buy a cessna. Airlines make big, multi-plane purchases, about every 5 years, and if you broke it down, probably 1 plane a month, possibly 2. And regardless, its not fun, 4 months to get a plane? People will not stick around for that, they really won't. Heaven forbid you crash a plane, itl be 2 months before you can pay off the repairs for it.

As well, looking at the majority of people on FlyNET, your airline is an exception, as it is not full of big jets, or wanting to have big jets. Most people want to say they have a fleet of brand spanking new aircraft at their disposal. Now as the system stands now, after many, many hours of flying, Ionathan has a massive fleet. And it would keep growing with the old multiplier. I want a smaller multiplier, but not 100x, it's too small. A scalable multiplier would be better, the large airlines would slow in growth, while giving younger ones with a fighting chance at keeping up to those already flying jumbos.

Startups:

Westjet
JetBlue
Jazeera

Admittedly, Westjet started on 737-200s, but they now own the newest fleet in North America, with an average age of 1.6 years for their airframes. Jetblue and Jazeera? Both started with brand new planes, and the growth is phenomenal from both of them. The idea that a startup has to fly clunkers is as ridiculous as it is obsolete.

Now, I have offered a legitimate reason for my discomfort with the new system, and based it upon my experience, not only as a member and aviation enthusiast, but also as someone who has run gaming events and built games before. You need to keep people interested, offer rewards. The current system is a punishment to anyone new, and to established members. It has, effectively, stagnated growth, not only in the economy of flyNET, but in interest in General. The number of flights is down, because no one wants to take the hit from using 16x, and they dont have the time to sit for 4 hours to make their flights. If they use 16x, they get so punished, their airline loses moneu.

The profits growing to match also leaves out an important bit of info. Right now it takes about 4 months, as you said, to get a new plane. of EQUAL value. How long will it take the guy who spent 24 mill (so 1 mill left) to afford, oh say a Boeing 737? Or a 767? Probably double, maybe triple the time. A year to move up a step, no one will do this, and they will go to another place. Under the 1000x multiplier, it still took me weeks of concerted flying to get the 767 (fokker 70->Fokker 100 -> 767) And I mean flying 4 times a day. Its not easy, and I was only able to do it over the holidays, when i had massive amounts of time. So growth is still slow at the beggining (and with scalable rate multiplier, it stays at a consistent pace)

And lastly, you have yet to fly under the new system, so I can't understand why you like it so much, seeing as how you've yet to use it. This is not a personal attack, but an observation from someone who prefers to test, and then discuss.

Scalable rate based on airplane size, small airlines benefit, larger airlines dont grow too fast, maybe not realistic, but it's called game balance.
Awards for people who fly real time, to compensate them compared to compression people. Or maybe increase their profit by 20%, but don't decrease the compression peoples earning's peoples money. At 16x, the profit is reduced to only 6.25% of the original value. That is much too harsh.

Again, comments are welcome, or other suggestions towards greater gameplay balance in the financial system.
Last edited by cmdrnmartin on Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Image
Image

Post Reply