Premium Accounts.

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DaKurt
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by DaKurt » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:21 pm

hezza wrote:I asked by email over a week ago whether the proposed limits would be monthly or weekly, and if so by rolling 7-days, calender or some other criteria.
Yep, we will use rolling 7-days criteria, and the limit is weekly. (as written in the premium account information)
hezza wrote: The lack of any kind of reply suggests that the developers themselves have no clue yet how this should/could be implemented. ;)
Wrong. If you would have read the "Important Announcement" forum you would know that we are now working on a completely renewed hompage for more than 3 months now. The implementation is nearly ready and only needs a finishing touch. The homepage will be released on 1.1.2010
hezza wrote: It is clear that the premium account system will involve more work from staff; accounting for payments, administering the standard limits, catching new multiple accounts holders and dealing with complaints. On the other hand membership will fall (to what extent remains to be seen), which will ease the workload somewhat.
The premium accounts will not need any administration, because of the automated paypal system. (only problems will have to be dealt with manually). Standard limits will be implemented into the homepage and client and will not need any administration.
Catching multiple accounts will be improved a whole lot on the new homepage because of some effective new detection method.
Membership will fall (this is unfortunatelly the negative part), but as you said, this will enable us to concentrate more on the remaining pilots.

best regards
DaKurt
Claudio - FSAirlines Programming

ep-irl
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by ep-irl » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:26 pm

charging a 23 euro per person/year fee compared to Vafs 60 dollar per VA/year is crazy.

Im all for paying for a service, but the service will have to meet the standards of your competitors for me to stay.

this is a bad decision and the CEO of my airline will need to consider what to do next.
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hezza
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by hezza » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:54 pm

I stand corrected and thanks for clarifying, but a reply to my mail would only have taken a minute.

/G
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Brian Peace
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by Brian Peace » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:30 pm

ep-irl wrote:charging a 23 euro per person/year fee compared to Vafs 60 dollar per VA/year is crazy.

Im all for paying for a service, but the service will have to meet the standards of your competitors for me to stay.

this is a bad decision and the CEO of my airline will need to consider what to do next.
yes and I bet VAFS is licking their lips and jumping for joy.

guys... any reply on this? Konny and developers... how can you justify charging this much for EACH PILOT when a CEO could pay the same amount, to move his VA over to another similar system where the same price you want to charge for each MARGINALLY active pilot, would pay for an entire VA? Are we going to get any discussion going on this or is your rate and max flights set in stone. Please respond soon as I myself have some decisions to make here.
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Vjacheslav
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by Vjacheslav » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:13 pm

I see only one reason to pay for the account in the FSA - if the developers will offer a new system with an added many new and interesting features, at least what is now available in the other system!


Otherwise I do not see any reason to pay MORE for less features :(

Flightguy123
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by Flightguy123 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:17 am

yeah, is there any chance that you guys will lower the costs? VAFS is acctually a better deal for right now..

Thanks
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Konny
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by Konny » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:26 pm

Well, I won't start comparing FSAirlines to VAFS as this won't bring us any further but I think both system have different pros and cons and it's the users decision what he prefers. We also had an internal discussion where we came up with different ideas and finally said that charging each individual pilot would be the most fair way as otherwise only one person (i.e. the CEO) would have to pay for all the others using the same system. And paying the same for an airline with 2 or 20 pilots isn't really fair, either.
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Brian Peace
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by Brian Peace » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:07 am

Konny wrote:Well, I won't start comparing FSAirlines to VAFS as this won't bring us any further but I think both system have different pros and cons and it's the users decision what he prefers. .
If we are comparing apples to apples and one apple costs $4 a month and the other apple costs $100 a month (25 mouths to "feed") then were not really getting to make a "choice"... really.... your forcing us off. Please reconsider your pricing options for larger VA's... Im the CEO of one that I'd be glad to pay for... hell if someone wants to run a VA he SHOULD HAVE TO pay.... that's my take on it. I dont want to go to another system but... I guess by not diurectly answering my questions... you just did... :evil:
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tethork
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by tethork » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:26 pm

Bottom line here is that FSAirlines feels it needs to charge for it's services to continue. With this decision, they have placed themselves in competition as a pay-to-play service with other pay-to-play services. Comparing FSAirlines to others such as VAFs in price and features is more than fair imo.

I started using FSAirlines only a few weeks ago, when I decided to join a newly created VA. I really like the folks in this VA, and have enjoyed my time flying with them.

Everyone in the VA has expressed concern / dislike of the Premium Account option, and so we have begun looking at other options.

FSAirlines has done a commendable job of creating a community, and service that is enjoyable to use and be a part of. However, with the move to a pay-to-play service, they will be held to a higher standard. For me and my fellow VA members, FSAirlines is not worth spending money on. With a limit then of only 4 flights per week, we are left with the choice of moving elsewhere or watching the VA die due to the inability to be active.

Why do we feel it's not worth the money? For me, the number one reason is future potential. I don't see many posts from the Devs, and when I do, they are typically negative in tone. Requests for change, adjustments, fixes, or additions are met with reasons for why they are to much work, or not fitting in with the vision of the Devs. More often than not, it's a "deal with it" attitude, which is a direct quote. I can respect the FSAirlines Devs defense of their own vision of what they want FSAirlines to be, and become; but as a pay-to-play service, the devs vision becomes much less relevant. Add to that the bugs, and poor detection the client software displays, FSAirlines has little to warrant paying a subscription to use it.

Smart marketing strategy for any company / service is to hype the features it has, and most importantly, the plans it has for the near future in adding new features. Given that the only future plans announced is the redesigned webpage set to launch on Jan 1, what incentive is there for us to start paying for a service that has been free all along?

Another big issue I see with FSAirlines is its lack of documentation. There is enough information scattered around the forums and wiki to use the service, but locating the systems penalties, ranks, route make-ups etc, is a huge task. When people ask in the forums they are typically given a terse "go to the wiki or use the forum search". I spent several days reading virtually all the posts in the forums digging for numbers / information on the system and then wrote the stuff up in a FAQ of sorts for my VA. Unfortunately, so much is not covered, and what is, is from posts a couple years old. No way to know if they are even still accurate. How can you charge money when the customers don't have ready access to a manual beyond what is needed to sign up, download a client and fly a flight?

Please do not take this as saying FSAirlines "sucks balls". It's not that at all. Merely one persons take (and the others in my VA) on why FSAirlines is a decent service as it is, and a very poor one as a pay-to-play. Even if there were no alternatives, I would not pay to use FSAirlines in it's current state.

As someone who has used this service for free up to now, and have enjoyed what is offered, I state my thanks. I write this critical post, in the hopes that it will give the Devs a differing point of view from their own on these upcoming changes. I sincerely hope that FSAirlines move to pay-to-play is successful, and grows to be a thriving community for those that feel FSAirlines meets their personal expectations for a pay service.

Thank you for taking the time to read my opinion,
Steven Letcher

tethork
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by tethork » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:36 pm

Konny wrote:Well, I won't start comparing FSAirlines to VAFS as this won't bring us any further but I think both system have different pros and cons and it's the users decision what he prefers. We also had an internal discussion where we came up with different ideas and finally said that charging each individual pilot would be the most fair way as otherwise only one person (i.e. the CEO) would have to pay for all the others using the same system. And paying the same for an airline with 2 or 20 pilots isn't really fair, either.
I completely agree with everything you wrote, but the basic facts of business is you must offer competitive prices / features or the business fails. Fair has no place in the formula. Sad, but true.

Steven Letcher

PCD001
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by PCD001 » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:31 am

But it it quite fair, and they do offer something that the others don't.
There is no free account on VAFS, there is here, and I can do 17 flights a month without paying anything - and considering I fly at x1 that is fine by me.
Bob
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The "New" Cheap Fuel Operator . & . 'T' Tail Fan !!
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danmand
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by danmand » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:53 pm

My VA decided to take a “wait and see” attitude. Four flights per week seems awfully low. How much bandwidth does it take to upload what should be a small text file? For that matter I can’t believe that bandwidth is the real issue for wanting to charge.

1. I can fly on Vatsim and use a lot more bandwidth for free
2. I can download files on Avsim and use tons more bandwidth for a lot less money.
3. Why is bandwidth an issue at all when GoDaddy (I think I read that was what we are using) offers an unlimited space / bandwidth plan for only $14 per month?

So if bandwidth isn’t the real issue what is? If you just want to start making money on your efforts, then fine. I don’t have a problem with that. But I’d start with paid advertisements first before I’d charge the users. With 6000 active pilots on here I wouldn’t think you’d have trouble finding companies to advertise. And you’d have a harder time finding advertisers when pilots start dropping out to go somewhere else.

Dan
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PCD001
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by PCD001 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:39 am

danmand wrote: 1. I can fly on Vatsim and use a lot more bandwidth for free
2. I can download files on Avsim and use tons more bandwidth for a lot less money.
Ummmm well carry on, I was unware that VATSIM and or Avsim offered the Economic model . . . . . . . . why Fly on FSAirlines at all ?

For what its worth, I sometimes try and combine my VPA flight, my FSAirlines Flight and VATSIM flight all into one. It makes for a very busy and realistic flight. Think I could only mamage 2 or 3 of those a week.
Bob
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CAPFlyer
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by CAPFlyer » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:03 am

Not only that, but consider that VATSIM is hosted on donated servers and bandwidth (including ones donated by AVSIM) which specifically preclude VATSIM from being able to charge any form of membership fee. These servers are paid for by people whom run hosting services and thus have the means by which to donate such large amounts of bandwidth and space, but it's not completely without restriction.

AVSIM survives on the donations of its members and a LOT of outside advertising funds.

GoDaddy's "unlimited" hosting isn't unlimited, you may be able to use an "unlimited" amount per month, but how much you can use at a time is severely restricted, and thus not compatible with our operating model.

Before you go tossing hand grenades, you would be well advised to know the facts.
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danmand
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Re: Premium Accounts.

Post by danmand » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:11 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:Not only that, but consider that VATSIM is hosted on donated servers and bandwidth (including ones donated by AVSIM) which specifically preclude VATSIM from being able to charge any form of membership fee. These servers are paid for by people whom run hosting services and thus have the means by which to donate such large amounts of bandwidth and space, but it's not completely without restriction.

AVSIM survives on the donations of its members and a LOT of outside advertising funds.

GoDaddy's "unlimited" hosting isn't unlimited, you may be able to use an "unlimited" amount per month, but how much you can use at a time is severely restricted, and thus not compatible with our operating model.

Before you go tossing hand grenades, you would be well advised to know the facts.
You are right and I stand corrected. Godaddy doesn't allow a ton of bandwidth at one time.
My intent wasn't to throw grenades as you put it and I apologize if it came across that way.

What I was trying to bring across is that I can't imagine that we are using that much bandwidth. It's not like we are broadcasting audio or video streams. If the only reason for charging is to cover the costs of bandwidth, then we can easily come up with the money (what $100 - $200?, if that much) from companies willing to advertise their products on the site.

Dan
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