BELL Augusta 609

[TOGA PARTY]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum but we have a pilot interested in flying the Bell Augusta 609. I don't see it available anywhere. How can we get our hands on one?

[rangerpsych]

The aircraft model specifically is the Wilco Pub's BA609... the numbers from FSX don't match up to the production specs from Bell/Agusta. I attached an image with the specs on the aircraft converted appropriately from FSX.

[CAPFlyer]

The aircraft has not received certification and is not in service, both requirements to be added to the network. Until this occurs, they will not be available for purchase. In addition, all figures submitted must be from real world sources. If they do not match published figures, they will not be accepted. If the data in Flightsim does not match the real world data, then you must find another flightsim model or edit the one you have. This information is clearly stated at the bottom of the "Add New Aircraft Type" page.

[rangerpsych]

What specifically is the reasoning for the restriction? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it...

[CAPFlyer]

Our rules for addition are clearly stated both at the bottom of the page that you put the data in on, and in the forums.

1) The Aircraft must have been in civilian service and received a civilian airworthiness certificate (i.e. no military-only aircraft). If it is in test for certification, we will allow it to be added as a "prototype" where it will not be available for purchase, but be on the database to prevent multiple requests for the aircraft data prior to certification and entry to service.
2) The Aircraft data must be from an easily verifiable source and the real world specifications. This prevents conflicts where 2 developers may have differences of opinion on how to build the aircraft or inaccuracies in the models that give the aircraft unfair advantages (i.e. the Default 747-400 has much longer range than the real aircraft due to a bad flight model).
3) The seating must be for a "typical" 2-class arrangement on aircraft which have more than 1 seating arrangement available on single aisle aircraft (i.e. Narrow Body), and a "typical" 3-class arrangement on twin-aisle aircraft (i.e. Wide Body).
4) Aircraft not in serial production will only be allowed as "Special Use" aircraft and no single VA will be allowed to operate any more than really exist in the real world (i.e. you can only have 1 AN-225 and 5 A300-600ST Belugas).
5) Aircraft not certified for commercial service, but are certified for private service will be listed as "Private Only". This primarily pertains to aircraft like "Warbirds" and small "Light Sport" and "Ultralight" aircraft.

[rangerpsych]

Ok, guess that's enough wiggle room. So, before I go crunching numbers, would you guys be willing to add a L-300, the civilian variant of the C-141? It's a cargo bird but going off what you just said it'd be eligible under the Special Use, with 1 aircraft (since they only made one as a civilian marketing proof platform, did a bunch of demo flights then NASA bought it)

If so, I'll get the numbers...

[CAPFlyer]

There is no wiggle room. The "L-300" was never produced and it was never certified. The aircraft you speak of was a C-141A that was modified with civilian avionics. When it didn't sell and Lockheed canceled the program (prior to any certification), the aircraft was donated to NASA as a C-141B, not as an "L-300".

Again, *ALL* aircraft added to the database must have received a civilian airworthiness certificate to be added. Flight Test Aircraft do not receive airworthiness certificates. They are operated under very strict conditions and the test program is approved by the applicable regulatory agency prior to the first flight.

[rangerpsych]

There is no wiggle room. The "L-300" was never produced and it was never certified. The aircraft you speak of was a C-141A that was modified with civilian avionics. When it didn't sell and Lockheed canceled the program (prior to any certification), the aircraft was donated to NASA as a C-141B, not as an "L-300".

Again, *ALL* aircraft added to the database must have received a civilian airworthiness certificate to be added. Flight Test Aircraft do not receive airworthiness certificates. They are operated under very strict conditions and the test program is approved by the applicable regulatory agency prior to the first flight.

In January, 1965, Federal Aviation Administrator N. E. Halaby presented the civil transport type certificate for the C-141 to Chuck Wagner who was at that time Vice-President of the Lockheed-Georgia Company and C-141 Project Director.

ADDITIONAL C-141 STARLIFTER BACKGROUND AND HISTORY
A total of 285 C-141 aircraft were built at Lockheed Martin's Marietta,
Ga. facility, from 1963 to 1968. Peak year for production was 1967, when
107 C-141s came off the assembly line. The military C-141 fleet (284
aircraft) recorded a grand total of 10,645,726 flight hours, or an average
of approximately 39,465 hours per airframe. The military fleet tallied
1,026,695 full-stop landings. One StarLifter was delivered as a commercial
L-300 transport and was used as a company demonstrator. It was later used
by NASA as an airborne observatory.

[CAPFlyer]

You are correct that a Civil Type Certificate was delivered for the C-141A. This is not the same as the L-300A since the L-300A incorporated several changes (including weights, fuselage length, and avionics). Per FAA Type Certificate A2SO, the Type certificate is for the "USAF C-141A" only. There is no reference to a civilian model or even the C-141B or C-141C, which would require at minimum a Supplimental Type Certificate to be considered compliant with Civilian Airworthiness Certification. Indeed, searching the Supplimental Type Certificate database only finds one STC that references A2SO, and that one is for the installation of a pulse light module (which makes the lights flash on and off in sequence to improve visibility) on the taxi and/or landing lights on the aircraft.

In addition, NASA is not, has not, and will never be, a "Civilian Operator", they are a government agency and operate their aircraft under a different set of rules, even though most have FAA-issued registrations. Thus, no matter how many ways you try to twist it, the aircraft never went into civilian service, and as I stated, the type was never actually issued an airworthiness certificate, only it's military variant.