Why the TF is not good...

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Independance
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Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:30 pm

Hello

Recently my old planes started to earn more than usual. I look closer and... oh yes that new ticket factor. Idea maybe was right, but rest... take o look...

Airline F has two planes "A" and "B". Both with similar capacity of 100 pax.
"A" is with standard ticket factor of 1, and "B" has ticket factor adjusted to 1.5.

Airline F flies from place X to place Y with both airplanes on two different flight plan.
Standard ticket price for the X-Y route is $100.
Assuming that airline F has reputation of 120.
Airplane "A" carries 100 pax and basically earns (100 pax) x ($100) = $10000.
Airplane "B" carries 100 pax and earns (100 pax) x ($150 due to TF) = $15000.
Looks nice, but for the sake of realism.

To be in order with something normal You lower the ticket price for aircraft "B" to half to $50.
Now the Airplane "B" carries 100 pax and earns (100 pax) x ($100 due to TF) = $10000.

Looks better, so where is the hack? It is simple. Imagine that the standard price is not satisfactory, so you increase the ticket price for X-Y route, let say by $30.
So now it is going to be like that:
Airplane "A" carries less than 100 pax due to increased price let say 80 and basically earns (80 pax) x ($130) = $10400.
Airplane "B" still carries 100 pax, because for it the price will be $80, which is still way before the standard one and earns (100 pax) x ($120 due to TF) = $12000.

FS airlines is an airline simulation, but this clearly shows that is more a game, than a simulation... it was good as it was, but as always somebody changed it.


Best Regards
Tomasz

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Quantum
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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Quantum » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:40 pm

Hi,

The aircrafts with the TF's applied are less economical to run due to payload restrictions due to higher fuel burns and less powerful engines. When you take fuel costs into account the majority of aircrafts with the TF's still only make a modest profit. Without TF's some aircraft would not be able to operate in the FSA economy. Yes, this IS a game and the TF was introduced to allow any aircraft to be operated within the FSA environment and still be able to make an honest living. The majority of users here aren't chasing numbers, they're just here to enjoy the flying and the infra-structure that FSA allows. If you chase numbers you aren't ever going to be happy as there will always be something to beef about.

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John
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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:11 pm

Quantum wrote:The aircrafts with the TF's applied are less economical to run due to payload restrictions due to higher fuel burns and less powerful engines.
But for some airplanes, decision to apply TF was wrong.
Quantum wrote:If you chase numbers you aren't ever going to be happy as there will always be something to beef about.
That is true, I think my time here is over.

Best Regards
Tomasz

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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:39 pm

Independance wrote:But for some airplanes, decision to apply TF was wrong.
How about some examples? It does no one any good to make a statement as if it's fact but not support it with examples.

If there are planes you think shouldn't be qualified for the Ticket Factor, just say so. But don't make blanket statements that they're wrong, use numbers that don't tell the whole story, and try to make it look like all the TF does is make certain planes more profitable than others when that is not the purpose nor the effect.
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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:47 pm

CAPFlyer wrote: How about some examples? It does no one any good to make a statement as if it's fact but not support it with examples.
Hello

BAC 1-11 - 400
BAC 1-11 - 500 which shoud have 109 seat (there was long debate about it).

Boeing 737-200
Boeing 737-200 adv
Boeing 737 -200 QC

I can say about airplanes that I use (used) they don't need TF.

Best Regards
Tomasz

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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by CAPFlyer » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:50 pm

I can definitely see the 737s as they're still used today with profitability. The BAC's I'm not as sure about as when I've been flying them, at normal ticket rates, they wouldn't have made anything except on really long flights, not the mid- to short-range flights that were their "Bread-and-Butter" in real life. Maybe just a reduction of the TF?
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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:23 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:I can definitely see the 737s
Glad we agree at least here :mrgreen:
CAPFlyer wrote: as they're still used today with profitability. The BAC's I'm not as sure about as when I've been flying them, at normal ticket rates, they wouldn't have made anything except on really long flights, not the mid- to short-range flights that were their "Bread-and-Butter" in real life. Maybe just a reduction of the TF?
I'm flying both 400/500 from 180NM to 1600NM trip and get them with profits,
sometimes where the fuel price is very high there is very, very low profit, but as in RW You can play with ticket price and...
...nobody never said it will be easy...

Regards
Tomasz

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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Quantum » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:36 pm

Hi,

You need to look at the pre-multiplied profits and you will see that even when TF is applied the income is modest for those aircrafts. In the real world these aircraft aren't operated today for various reasons. Assuming that airframes and avionics were still good, the fuel inefficient/less powerful engines would preclude their use. We are just trying to enable these aircraft to be operated in a manner other than just keeping your head above water. Reduce your multiplier from the current x500 down to x25 and your generated income is much lower. TF's were introduced due to the lower incomes generated when the MZFW came into the calculations. When MLW's come into the calculation then payloads may be restricted further. The aircrafts with TF's applied were grouped by similar types/engines which is why the 737-200 has a TF applied but the 737-300 doesn't due to it's more fuel efficient engines.

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John
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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:11 pm

Quantum wrote:Assuming that airframes and avionics were still good, the fuel inefficient/less powerful engines would preclude their use.
The fuel proce is only one thing, mostly here in EU is the noise, lack of parts, maintenance etc...

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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by Independance » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:38 pm

Hi

Another thing to add.

Today I made flight from poprad to Hurghada, roughly 1600NM with a 1-11.
FSA calculated standard price as $187. Since 1-11 has that stupid TF of 1.5, which means that the pax income should be 99 x 1.5 x 187 = $27769. 1.5 means 3 times more than normal, so to get rid of TF, we should have ticket price of $124, so 99 x 1.5 x 124 = $18500.

Without TF we would have 99 x 187 = $18513. And STILL we will have decent profit.

And with 109 pax we will have (but of course somebody knows better) ....

So please don't write that 1-11 is not profitable (even in FSA economy), that You can't do, doesn't mean that nobody can do....

Regards
Tomasz

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Re: Why the TF is not good...

Post by CAPFlyer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:00 pm

Tomasz,

If you fly it far enough, most airplanes WILL be profitable. The problem is flying it far enough. The BAC1-11 was NOT designed for long legs of 2.5+ hours like you're flying. It was designed for short haul (less than 2 hours). When you operate it this short of a route, like those used by BEA, the aircraft has a hard time making a profit as the cost of fuel for the route versus the price required to fill the airplane is much closer and thus if you encounter bad weather (even a 20 knot headwind will cause problems) then you will end up with an aircraft barely breaking even.

You're right that anyone can make a profit if they very carefully control the airplane's operations, but that's not how they were used. The idea is to make the aircraft feasible to be used in their "natural" environment.

Since you feel the constant need to demean others however, this thread is finished.
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